When do you start calling yourself a bowyer?

[Bryce]

When you start looking at trees the way you used to look at pretty ladies .
Del

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA FACT!

make a bumper sticker that says "i brake for trees" or "i brake for bow wood"

real conversation:
riding in the car with my lady
bryce: (glances out the window and sees an apple tree with a perfectly straight branch. face clings to the window with drool)
"i have to have it"
the lady: "have what"
bryce: "that apple branch"
the lady: "you've got to be kidding me!? you have a problem......."
bryce: "nope i have a desire, a need, a lust for bow wood....perfectly normal"
the lady: "no"

[PEARL DRUMS]

If you NEVER think about a bow breaking as your building it and assume all of them will hold together fine........you come a good ways towards being somebody in the bow building arena.

[toomanyknots]

     Knots actually establishing a guild and a curriculum would be a logistcal nightmare! As you say, who would make the rules? Who would select those that made the rules?  I would think that about 70% of the curriculum should be based on actually building bows and the other 30% on related skills. I buy 90% my wood in stave or board form so have not developed the best skills in selecting trees or curing for that matter. I have never gotten into finishing bows so lack skills in that area, same with handle wraps and a number of other related skills.
    Can you imagine the fighting, argueing, and divisions that might happen in setting up a guild? Also, many bowyers specialize in one type of bow, say elbs, or native american for instance and they get really good at it. As long as they stayed within their area of expertise they would be true bowyers. This would indicate a need for sub classes and trying to categorize all the different bows. Sounds like a pain in the rear.

Well now the more you talk about it, the closer I come to warmin up to the idea.  You make some good points really. It would make sense to have those who are the best at one thing do that one thing. With guitars I believe it is the same way, for a factory made guitar (don't know how I keep thinkin about guitars,... I traded in my cedar top/mahogany to get a spruce/rosewood the other day... When the spruce came in the mail the top had a big gash and it sounded terrible in the treble department to me, like a cigar box bad, so now I am waiting to go buy a cedar top right now,... I got like 2 days or so until they refund the money so I can buy me a cedar once again... time is going very slow around here), but with a factory made guitar I believe that every other thing is done by someone else, and it makes it alot more efficient. I believe a good amount of experienced luthier's got together while back, including kenny hill and a couple others, and founded cordoba guitars. For the price of these guitar's, they are amazing compared to what used to be the standard for a student classical guitar. They are factory made, but with one person doing one thing, and one person doing something else. I guess the main luthier's would be considered the master's, and the chinese guys they teach to make guitars the apprentices. But at the same time, a luthier made instrument, made by one guy instead of ten, will almost always sound better than a factory made one... Maybe I'm losing the meaning of what you meant at first...

"Can you imagine the fighting, argueing, and divisions that might happen in setting up a guild?"

Yes. 

Really I was just spoutin off my opinion on the guild and master/apprentice relationship the way I understood it, and how it might just be a little hard to have that relationship outside of a business environment. Even if the only business part of it was "You pay me so much money, and ill teach you to make a fine bow" kinda thing. With the available literature, (some of which people on this forum have contributed to,   ) there doesn't seem to be any tricks of the trade that you can only learn from someone in person. Of course I wouldn't know to be honest, me and steve from middletown are the only people I have ever known in my life that makes bows, traditional or not. Although I would kill to see any other bowyer at work in person. To be able to go somewhere and be taught by an experienced bowyer to the degree that people are on this forum would be worth the money to someone who wanted to learn face to face. I do know that a few bowyers will hold workshops that you can go to for a price. But nothing like a dedicated apprenticeship available to the general public.

[George Tsoukalas]

When I meet someone new, I say, "Hi! I'm Jawge the bowyer." Then, I get funny looks so I know I must be one.
Jawge

[JW_Halverson]

I took a look at that link to the folks that are making a guild out of bow making.  I can certify to you all that I will not submit any of my work to them for scrutiny nor will I bow and scrape (pun intended) to their standards! 

I can just see the prats coming out of the woodwork (again, pun intended) to be condescendingly critical about the most insignificant of details.  Things like throwing a fit over someone saying "firing" an arrow.  And yes, I even recognize the last bit was not a complete sentence.  But you got it didn't you?  No, I'm more of the mindset that a bunch of jokers with sawdust in their hair and splinters festering in their fingers getting together at places like Pappy's is where I will spend my efforts.  I'd gladly hand over a bow for their opinions on it.  I'll laugh and smile like a Cheshire cat as they all run for cover when someone makes a test draw on that bow.  I'll file away for future references any jokes they make on it's supposed lack of merit.  I'll cherish those opinions because they come from like minded persons. 

Honorable and Worshipful League of Oxidental Toxophilists be danged.   I'll sooner rattle and hang with the rest of you Primitive Archers!

[toomanyknots]

I took a look at that link to the folks that are making a guild out of bow making.  I can certify to you all that I will not submit any of my work to them for scrutiny nor will I bow and scrape (pun intended) to their standards! 

I can just see the prats coming out of the woodwork (again, pun intended) to be condescendingly critical about the most insignificant of details.  Things like throwing a fit over someone saying "firing" an arrow.  And yes, I even recognize the last bit was not a complete sentence.  But you got it didn't you?  No, I'm more of the mindset that a bunch of jokers with sawdust in their hair and splinters festering in their fingers getting together at places like Pappy's is where I will spend my efforts.  I'd gladly hand over a bow for their opinions on it.  I'll laugh and smile like a Cheshire cat as they all run for cover when someone makes a test draw on that bow.  I'll file away for future references any jokes they make on it's supposed lack of merit.  I'll cherish those opinions because they come from like minded persons. 

Honorable and Worshipful League of Oxidental Toxophilists be danged.   I'll sooner rattle and hang with the rest of you Primitive Archers!

That sounded like a battle speech. You got me all hyped up and ready to go to war and everything!

[Badger]

Giving it more thought it is true that many hobbyists identify themselves by their hobby, skateboarders, bikers, gardeners, bird watchers, archers, hunters, surfers, etc. So fair enough, identifying as a bowyer if you make bows works! What should proffessional bow makers call themselves? LOL.

[PEARL DRUMS]

Giving it more thought it is true that many hobbyists identify themselves by their hobby, skateboarders, bikers, gardeners, bird watchers, archers, hunters, surfers, etc. So fair enough, identifying as a bowyer if you make bows works! What should proffessional bow makers call themselves? LOL.

PEARL DRUMS of course Steve!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!

[George Tsoukalas]

Professional bowyers? But selling a few bows doesn't speak to  ability or experience. Jawge

[bubby]

i dont need nobody telling me what i am or how i ott to do it or how i did it wrong, that what my wife's for, Bub

[toomanyknots]

i dont need nobody telling me what i am or how i ott to do it or how i did it wrong, that what my wife's for, Bub

  This whole thread has cracked me the frig up. 

What should proffessional bow makers call themselves? LOL.

From what most people on here and primitive archer have said, I'd guess "poor". 

[Del the cat]

JW has it right, we are on this forum because we value the opinions (and humour) of our peers.
I can't think of anywere else I (or anyone else) could ask a bow making question and get an answer worthy of reading.
Del

[Kpete]

Interesting discussion this is.  What do we want the label of "bowyer" to do?  To distinguish between people and their skill, or drive, or intuitive ability, or do we want it to band us together toward a goal of taking wood, hide, horn, etc and making a fun piece of equipment.   This is equipment that is not easily mass produced.
No one on this site that i have ever contacted asked me my skill level, my tally of bows made, broke, or sold.  They always encourage and help as one with a common interest and drive.
I don't claim the title "bowyer" or "craftsman"-some like my work, some do not.  I am a bowyer because I make bows.  Others are better, more experienced, more skilled, and appreciate their expertise.   But every thing I know about bow building I got from someone else, and I suspect they got it in bits and pieces from some one else too.
I got up for a break in this post and saw "The Traditional Bowyer's Bible" on my night stand.  I guess bowyers can read a book first, or consult the work of others.   The guys who but the first TBB together invited us all to stand under the sign "bowyer" and join them in having a good time improving and learning and sharing-as they certianly did.   
Let's keep joining together in our various skill levels and experiences and remember that anyone who has made a bow that shoots, even if it breaks, is a rare breed in these days.
Keep tilerin'
Kpete

[Arrowind]

cool topic

I think I'm probably a level 3 bowyer...

I still haven't figured out how to make a +2 bow along with magic arrows....I have a looooong way to go. 

[Sempertiger]

Personally, I think the term bowyer describes anyone that makes bows. However, like my full time trade, I think that there are levels of skill that can be defined. Though these differ in modern times  from what they would have been defined as during Archery's pre-gun prime time.

I would describe modern bowyer's skills as such:

Apprentice Bowyer...A person that makes or attempts to make bows of the simplest design with the easiest materials to work with. This person needs significant help from available resources and breaks more potential bows than makes.

Journeyman Bowyer... A person that makes bows of a professional quality in all but the most difficult designs with all but the most difficult materials to work with. They semi-regularly produce examples that are near flawless in workmanship and can expect their work to last for years of service. This person needs guidance with only the most difficult jobs and makes more bows than they break.

Artisan Bowyer: A person that always produces bows with flawless or near flawless workmanship. They are comfortable making bows from any material and any design and never need guidance. This level of skill results in nearly never breaking a bow.

Master Bowyer: God

JS