Glue for horn bellies?

[Prarie Bowyer]

Found this serries on bows by Ed Scott and his horn and Springbok antler bellies. 

I have Urac 185 and it seems that horn is fairly available on the web.  Is URAC a good glue for gluing horn to wood?

Also I've read that TB3 is fine to use for Sinewing a back, but how long does it need to dry? 

What is best for this sort of bow?  I dig these designs Reflex~reflex or 5 curve bows.  Seems like his are in the length range I'm looking for and primitive but long lasting and high performance.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QB_EQP3FoHw

[M-P]

Howdy, 
Short answer to your questions----Probably.   I've seen some commercially made bows that I suspect used modern adhesives.  They basically look like modern laminates that just happened to use a horn lamination for the belly.

That is not what Mr. Scott is doing in this video!!!

I've only made a couple so far,  but I can tell you that making horn bellied composite bows is rather different than making a wooden bow.  Yes gemsbok horn is easily purchased on the internet.    Water buffalo horn strips are also available.  Traditionally the glue to use in making such bows is some form of collagen glue.   Such glues are usually named by the animal tissue they're made from, (ie. fish bladder glue, hide glue,  rabbit skin glue,  sinew glue, etc.)   Such glues are easy, though time consuming and smelly to make.   They're also widely available for purchase.   Knox gelatin is a highly refined bone glue that you can purchase at your local grocery store.  I'll call them all "hide glue" for the rest of this post
Hide glue also is the best (IMO) glue for gluing sinew as it is the same stuff as the sinew!   As the sinew dries and shrinks the glue is drying and shrinking too.    Done well, a sinewed backing eventually becomes a pretty much homogenous layer.  As that layer shrinks and cures it can add tremendous reflex to the bow.   
TB and similar glues cure fairly rapidly and prevent the sinew from shrinking.   The sinew still protects the back, but doesn't add any reflex. 

Well again my hands on experience is limited, so I'll just suggest that you read further.    Fortunately a book has been written on making horn bows!
Look up the book Adam Karpowicz wrote on making Turkisk style bows.   Or if you want a bow just like Mr Scott's consider contacting him for lessons ( I heard he does teach occasionally.)
 Ron

[kiwijim]

Hide glue.

[mikekeswick]

Seriously forget modern glues...yes they might work but I really wouldn't have too much faith in them. The best options are collagen based glues as mentioned above. I don't know why people think they are smelly I like the smell and it's only ever mild Gelatine isn't refined bone glue it's refined hide glue. Bone glues aren't very strong compared to sinew/hide/fish air bladder etc glues. You should definately buy Adam Karpowicz's book it really does tell you everything you need to know too make any hornbow.
Remeber that a hornbow is going to take a while to make and they really do benefit from long drying times. You can make a wooden bow in an hour...not so with a horn bow more a labour of love!

[Lee Slikkers]

Go with Hide Glue or Fish Glue...I tend to make mine about a 50/50 Hide-Fish glue because I like the more "open" working time with the mix vs straight Hide glue.  I have not found it to be too smelly, even made big batched in my kid's basement playroom and no one (not even my wife who has the nose of a blood hound.)

I think the biggest reason to use the natural glues is that at the protein level the glue, sinew and horn at all pretty much the same and because of that as they dry the bound of these 3 become almost inseparable if they were prepared and constructed correctly.  If you have any desires to learn the horn bow art I would 3rd the reccommendation to get Adam's book...you won't find any other written resource out there that covers this topic as well as he does.  It really doesn't matter if you are wanting to make a Hungarian Horn Bow or a Shoshone Sheep Horn Bow, the principles are all the same.  Good Luck and share  your results when you make the leap.

[Tom Leemans]

If you go modern glue, I know John Sturtevant used smooth-on on the horn he added to the St.Judes bow years ago. It worked just fine. Since we are primitive though I'd go with what has been tried and true for centuries.

[M-P]

I don't know why people think they are smelly I like the smell and it's only ever mild Gelatine isn't refined bone glue it's refined hide glue. Bone glues aren't very strong compared to sinew/hide/fish air bladder etc glues.

I agree with Mike that the finished glues are usually not very smelly, and I'd be concerned about using the ones that are.   The making of the glue from raw materials can create odors though.   I believe mike and I are both partly right concerning Knox and similar gelatin powders since the companies that make them tend to use a mix of animal parts.  I've been told that bones and hides are always prominent parts of the mix though. A fact that may explain why the strength of Knox ( as a glue) varies in different reports.   

[Justin Snyder]

Hide Glue without a doubt.

Just an FYI, knox is made from a whole mess of parts, it contains skin, bone and other tissues. Regardless of what it is made from it is a good substitute to making your own hide glue if making it isn't an option.

[MWirwicki]

Hide glue,      Hide glue,       Hide glue.

I've seen several posts in this and other forums suggesting the use of modern glues such as TBII, TBIII, Urac, Cyanoacrylate and others for sinew and horn applications.  I don't understand why.  In my experience, it is more difficult to find the horn or the sinew than it is the hide glue.  Hide glue is simple to use and it is god awful strong. 

I have sinew bows that I made almost 20 years ago.  They still shoot, very well.  In fact, one of them is still my favorite deer hunting bow and has been used every year since I made it.  No failures, no repairs, no tuneups.  I've done a bit of sinewing with hide glue as of late.  The little woman doesn't even know that I'm doing it.  It doesn't smell much at all.  The horn, on the other hand smells pretty bad when sanding or cutting it. 

Hide glue,     Hide glue,    Hide glue!

[fishfinder401]

so MWirwicki.......... what are your feelings on hide glue

[MWirwicki]

Now that's funny, there....

That too, JW
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[JW_Halverson]

Mwirwicki, I would encourage you to be a little more open minded and maybe consider giving hide glue a chance.

[M-P]

Just to be plain it sounds like we all like hide glue.   But... if prariebowyer wants to experiment, who are we to rain on his parade?  It's his hard work that's going to blow up.    Ron

[fishfinder401]

Just to be plain it sounds like we all like hide glue.   But... if prariebowyer wants to experiment, who are we to rain on his parade?  It's his hard work that's going to blow up.    Ron

what if the rain is.....................................................wait for it................................................................... HIDE GLUE

wait a second, did i hear blow up

[MWirwicki]

I suppose there is one downfall.  You do have to put a finish on it.  I and many of the plains indians put a snakeskin over the sinew backings.  Just for that purpose.   My sinew backed hunting bows have all been rain soaked.  Again, no problems.   I think most of us agree that a set of skins looks awesome on a bow.  Not to mention the natural camouflage.