Red Elm?

[Badger]

   I have seen quite a few posts recently here and on other sights where guys are using red elm staves. I am starting to wonder if their are not two types of red elm. All the red elm I have worked with is nothing like american elm, or chinese elm. I have worked several staves and found it to be light weight porous and weak both in tension and compression. A marginal bow wood by most standards. I actually do like the red elm regardless as I have found it to be a very good performing wood when it all comes together as planned. Anybody elses opinion on red elm?

[tronman]

I have only made one bow from red elm. It's a mollie style bow. From my limited experience I found the wood to easy to work and the bow performs well. It did not think it was to porous but found the interlocking grain to tricky at times. Maybe the red elm up here in the frozen tundra of Belle Plaine Minnesota is a little denser the other areas?? Or maybe I just got lucky and found a good specimen to make a bow from. Anyways I had no problems with compression or tension failure with this particular bow so far and really like working with this wood.
I made a same style bow with some hickory that was cut down from the same wooded lot. This hickory stave was dense, heavy, and hard and made a nice hard shooting bow. I cut somemore hickory down from the same place this spring and has been drying out for the last six months.  I plan on harvesting more red elm from the same wooded lot.

[half eye]

I've made several bows from red elm (they call it slippery elm around here) also have used American elm (called grey elm up here). the red elm is close grained and fairly dense...the grey is lighter and has larger growth rings. Both of ours have interlocking grain and both make good bows but the red elm is (in my opinion) quite a bit "tougher"....takes more abuse and tolerates misstakes better.

I have pulled very short red elm bows very far 39" unbacked bow drawn to 24" and while it did take set it did not break, lift a sliver, or compression fracture and I still have it. it even has a knot in one limb.

Anyhow, that's my experience with it. I've used it and I personally like it a lot.
rich

[Badger]

   Red elm has always been a favorite amoung modern glass bow builders for its attractive grain and light weight. I am starting to think that maybe slippery elm and the red elm I am thinking of may be different woods.

[Marc St Louis]

Steve
There are so many subspecies of Elm that I have quit trying to identify them.  There are some sources that identify Red Elm as Slippery Elm but I have also seen some sites identify Red Elm as one of the hard Elms.  English Elm(Ulmus Campestris) is called Red Elm as is Cedar Elm(Ulmus Crassifolia) along with Nave Elm(Ulmus Procera).  Slippery Elm(Ulmus Rubra), English Elm and Nave Elm all have about the same SG but Cedar Elm is much more dense.

I have probably cut near a hundred Elm trees, if not more, and most will make an excellent bow.  There are a very few Elm trees that I have cut that are of a superior quality wood and made outstanding bows and about the same that are of a poor quality.  Most fall in the middle and make excellent bows.  Some of the most elastic Elm I have ever cut had thick growth rings and when reflexed with dry heat kept much of that reflex when the bow was tillered out.  Others had fairly thin rings and were very resistant to dry heat bending and lost much of the introduced reflex when the bow was tillered out.  Generally speaking I prefer Elm with uniform rings of about 1/8" thick as they are usually premium wood.  I have cut some Elm that had growth rings that varied from very thin at one point in the tree to very thick at another point.  The wood still made very fine bows.  I have cut some trees that were low in elasticity in compression and some that were a bit weak in tension but those are exceptions.  I have also cut some trees that had very high compression strength and others that were a bit low in compression strength and needed to be made a bit thicker to make weight.  You never know what you get when cutting Elm but it sure is a pleasure when you cut one with outstanding characteristics. 

[PatM]

True Red Elm is Slippery Elm but wood dealers probably sell any Elm that happens to produce a large dark heartwood as Red Elm.
 Elm is remarkable wood. It does seem to have a general simillarity between each tree but you never quite know how it will react to steaming.
 I have learned to never judge it until it is almost a completed bow.
I  would only divide the types up here into Red, Rock, and American. I have only ever cut American Elm but it can certainly show some of the features of the other two although I don't think Elm likes to hybridize.

[gmc]

I've tried a couple times to make a bow from Red Elm. Both tries left me scratching my head just about brace height as I watched the limbs slowly move inward under the tension of the string on the tiller tree. Its like the stuff just calaspes on itself after a certain point. What's odd is that until that point the wood was just fine.

Crazy stuff, I wouldn't even consider Red Elm a bow wood around here.

Just my experience.......

[Badger]

  Most of the elm I have worked is local chinese elm and elm staves I purchase usually on e ebay. The rock elm is by far my favorite, right up their with osage. I guess I have worked 5 or 6 red elm staves and all of them were very light and brittle.

[wvarcher]

I have made 6 or 7 bows from Red Elm and it makes a very fast bow.  all the bows i made were 70" long 1-3/4'' wide to mid-limb with a 7-8" stiff handle.  There is a lot of Red Elm around where i live but many of the trees are dying because of Dutch Elm Disease.  Even more so with the American Elm.  I keep my bows the same length, width
and poundage to keep things simple when i try other woods.  I can say Red E. is similar to Pignut Hickory in that a 70" Pignut H. bow 1-3/4" wide to midlimb with a 7-8" stiff handle give me a 50#bow.  Thickness of the limbs ends up the same to. All of the bows ended up with under 2" of set.  Haven't shot any bow I've made more than a couple 100 times because its on to the next one.  I wouldn't be disappointed if i only had red E. to work with.  Like hickory, it doesn't break.  Its unlike Hickory in that you can leave it outside for a time and it will not take on moisture very fast.  I'm afraid to leave my hickory bows out too long because they may cause a drought.  Stuff really takes on moisture.

[Dean Marlow]

My experience with Red Elm has been dissapointing. It seems to just collapse on me for some reason. I blamed the first couple of tries on the wood not being dry enough. This summer a fellow came over wanting to make a bow and he had a beautiful 5 year old Red Elm stave and it did the same thing for us. You think you got it where you want it and for some reason it just gave up on us and took on huge amounts of set. I am used to Osage and no doubt Elm needs to be handled differently but I haven't found out how yet. Dean

[Badger]

  V Archer, would you mind weighing the mass weight of one of your hickory bows as opposed to one of your red elm bows. Steve

[smoke]

I've made (or attempted to make) several bows of elm.  I find the sapwood to be very brittle but the hearwood to be very elastic.  My successful bows were using heartwood only.  In reading several posts over the years on this topic, I think my experience with sapwood is the exception rather than the rule.  My elm staves grew in SE Nebraska and I believe either the subspecies or conditions result in poor sapwood.  I should note that I've found removing the sapwood to be very easy with elm.

[Far East Archer]

This thread is reason I like go by scientific name, because it say what exactly you have. It is like your mate, he say I got a new Nike shoe, 2012 model. Oh and I do too, but mine not have this type of sole, but it is same model. Well, one is really just a fake with same name, other is real deal. Same with wood, seller will get wood, cut it and its having dark heart wood, mulberry. Its a red mulberry, please buy.
Though really the wood is Morus bombycis he is selling it as Morus Rubra, one is Asian variety and other is North American Species. So, even you buy it thinking it is Red Mulberry it is not, and may have lesser working properties or better, and confuse everyone.

However it is difficult to always identify wood to its scientific name, I think it would be really helpful. For many year I was using a wood I was told was white mulberry because no heartwood, but it is really a Japanese Hackberry wood.

[wvarcher]

Badger, I am away from home now until the coming weekend.  I will weigh 2 or 3 of each and let you know what they weigh when i get back home.

[wvarcher]

Badger, here are the weights for two Pignut Hickory bows and three Red Elm bows (Ulmas Rubra).  All the bows are between 47 and 55lbs and all are 70" long,1-3/4" wide to midlimb.  Each handle is stiff and 7.5"-8" long.  The two hickorys are, 1.65 and 1.79lbs.  The heavier one has more bulk from the grip to the end of the fades.  The Red Elms weights are: 1.4,1.41 and 1.5lbs.  that with a digital scale.  The heaviest Elm has been kept in a different location than all the other bows.  I suspect the moisture content is a little higher in that bow, about 10%.  I am sure i have Red Elm b/c the heartwood is red.