Author Topic: Weapons of Warre: The Ordnance of the Mary Rose  (Read 26526 times)

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Offline CraigMBeckett

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Weapons of Warre: The Ordnance of the Mary Rose
« on: June 25, 2011, 10:07:07 pm »
Has anyone read this offering from the Mary Rose Trust?

It is supposed to be about all the forms of ordinance on the ship including a section on the bows and arrows.

If you have read it:

1,  is it any good?

2, Is the section om the bows and arrows extensive?

I am considering buying it but would appreciate comments from those that have read it before I commit.

You can get it from this site:

http://www..oxbowbooks.com/ChooseCurrency.cfm/ESA/|trade.cfm|Publisher|Mary%20Rose%20Trust|SeriesID|869|

cost UKP 50.00, USD 80.00 (special offer usually USD 100.00) excluding postage.

Craig.

« Last Edit: August 06, 2011, 02:19:48 pm by Justin Snyder »

Offline Purbeck

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Re: Weapons of Warre: The Ordnance of the Mary Rose
« Reply #1 on: June 28, 2011, 10:23:39 am »
YES! I got my copy the other day. 2 volumes (one on the cannon, one on the hand held weapons) and a DVD (with all the bow measurements and drawings etc). The archery section is very extensive and reading and absorbing all the info will take years! Like the other MR books in the series (eg Before The Mast - kit an clothing etc) it is ful of draings/photos of the MR finds and has other comtemporary source drawings/photos to help the reader's understanding of how the weapons were used. I would definitely recommend investing in this one!

Offline CraigMBeckett

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Re: Weapons of Warre: The Ordnance of the Mary Rose
« Reply #2 on: June 30, 2011, 08:26:42 am »
Purbeck,

Thank you for an informative comment, have just ordered two other books ( The Bow by Gad Rausing, and The Bow Builders Book), so the purchase of "Weapons of Warre" will have to wait a month :)

It sounds like "Weapons of Warre" is the book those interested in the Bows etc have been waiting for, for the last 20 odd years. Maybe now its been published those people who could not tell us the dimensions of their replicas will now do so.

Craig.

Offline Purbeck

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Re: Weapons of Warre: The Ordnance of the Mary Rose
« Reply #3 on: June 30, 2011, 10:37:56 am »
That's the one!

Offline nidrinr

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Re: Weapons of Warre: The Ordnance of the Mary Rose
« Reply #4 on: July 17, 2011, 11:05:27 pm »
Purbeck, do the two volumes and the dvd come in one pack, or do you need to order 2 boks and a dvd separately?

Offline Purbeck

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Re: Weapons of Warre: The Ordnance of the Mary Rose
« Reply #5 on: July 18, 2011, 03:43:17 pm »
They all come as one (in a vey smart book box)

Offline nidrinr

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Re: Weapons of Warre: The Ordnance of the Mary Rose
« Reply #6 on: July 18, 2011, 10:57:15 pm »
..Order confirmed. Waiting. Waiting. Waiting.. Why is it taking so long? -It's almost 2 minutes since I made the order!  :P

Offline CraigMBeckett

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Re: Weapons of Warre: The Ordnance of the Mary Rose
« Reply #7 on: July 21, 2011, 07:33:07 am »
Decided to order it even though I had just ordered other books, Ordered it on 1st, appears to have been processed on 8th but like nidrinr I'm still waiting. Doesn't normally take anything like this time for mail to come from the UK.

Craig.

Offline bowbendr

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Re: Weapons of Warre: The Ordnance of the Mary Rose
« Reply #8 on: July 23, 2011, 03:42:29 am »
Keep us updated on the content--it looked like a really interesting book, but as a college student I probably shouldn't go ordering a copy just yet. If reports indicate it's worth it, I'll probably break down and buy a copy, thought.

Offline CraigMBeckett

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Re: Weapons of Warre: The Ordnance of the Mary Rose
« Reply #9 on: July 30, 2011, 01:36:13 am »
Keep us updated on the content--it looked like a really interesting book, but as a college student I probably shouldn't go ordering a copy just yet. If reports indicate it's worth it, I'll probably break down and buy a copy, thought.

My copy arrived yesterday and I have had a quick glance through the archery section this morning.

First the book actually comes in two parts (two separate books) in a cardboard sleeve, all together it makes a heavy parcel, no wonder I had to pay 18 UK pounds to have it airmailed to me. Now while the remainder looks to be very interesting I have initially only examined the parts of the Archery section, specifically the section on the bows and I must say I am disappointed.

I was expecting tables giving full measurements of all the intact or near intact bows, similar to those published by Hugh Soar etc. Instead we have a table, of 128 bows (if my quick count is accurate), that shows the length (presumably tip to tip, not nock to nock), and width/depth measurements at the centre, and 500mm and 900mm up each limb, plus whether they have a bowyer's mark, are set back in the handle and if they have double string notches. Not exactly enough data to make accurate replicas.

There are also other tables that give additional data for some bows,  6 bows described as "Slab sided and 15 bows described as D section, where the tables provide width/depth info for points 100mm, 200mm 400mm 600mm, 800mm, 900mm up each limb, plus the length of the horn (nock) stain and the width/depth at the so called tillering nock. Therefore for these bows, if we combine the info these tables with that in the previously mentioned table we get measurements at the centre plus 100mm, 200mm, 400mm, 500mm, 600mm, 800mm & 900mm up the limbs plus the info on the nocks. So we are missing measurements at 300mm, 700mm and information on the length between nocks. Therefore even for these 21 bows we are missing data that would be necessary if one wanted to make replicas. What makes this even more disappointing is that in the text of the book where the authors of the section reporting on the bows begin to talk about then they say " The process of measurement took two distinctive forms: specific linear measurements together with the intensive recording of the width and depths of the upper and lower limbs at  100mm intervals from the perceived centre of the bow through to the tips, and recording of particular features and their inter-relationships in terms of linear measurement, orientation and contextual deposition.  So it seems they took all the measurements but just have not presented them.

With regard to the arrows, I have only glanced at that section but it seems to offer far more information that we have had before, will have to look more closely at it.

For those who are interested or were involved in the recent discussion on warbow strings it seems that the Mary Rose Trust has tentatively identified a length of cordage as part of a bow string, have not read the section yet but there is one on it.

Craig.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2011, 01:40:21 am by CraigMBeckett »

Offline Phil Rees

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Re: Weapons of Warre: The Ordnance of the Mary Rose
« Reply #10 on: July 30, 2011, 06:39:57 am »
Craig
Thanks for the first glance review.
I haven't recieved my copy yet, but from your quick "once over" , is it telling us anything new.

Offline Ian.

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Re: Weapons of Warre: The Ordnance of the Mary Rose
« Reply #11 on: July 30, 2011, 10:58:13 am »
Thanks for the run down Craig, it doesn't surprise me that there is not much about the bows all it would need would be for them to consult a bow maker and they could have said what info was needed. I hope they release a booklets of all the different weapons individually.
ALways happy to help anyone get into heavy weight archery: https://www.facebook.com/bostonwarbowsbows/

Offline CraigMBeckett

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Re: Weapons of Warre: The Ordnance of the Mary Rose
« Reply #12 on: July 31, 2011, 02:46:47 am »
Thanks for the run down Craig, it doesn't surprise me that there is not much about the bows all it would need would be for them to consult a bow maker and they could have said what info was needed. I hope they release a booklets of all the different weapons individually.

Yes what we need is the raw data that one would include in any report/dissertation. :)

Have now finished reading the archery section, there is information there that I have not come across before and the section on arrows is very good considering the paucity of information we previously had. Various claims are made that are arguable, but what else would one expect. There are also sections that one wonders why they put them in including one that tries to establish the weights (notice the plural) of the bows from the spine of the arrows, the gentleman who does the analysis appears to be a statistician and not an archer, (his statistics later on are excellent), he uses the AMO spine charts but as the published charts does not extend out to the deflections obtained he has produced an rather complicated equation to calculate these deflections/spines, which to me shows he is unaware of the original basis of the AMO charts which is 26/deflection = spine. The results are then adjusted to provide results for hunting or target shafts. He also does not seem to have adjusted for arrow length. Must have another read of the section as I may be doing this gentleman a disservice.

Now don't get me wrong I am not saying don't bother with the book, quite the contrary it is an excellent thing and I am looking forward to beginning at the start of part 1 and reading it through it looks to be very interesting and informative even if not as totally informative as we could wish.

Craig.

Offline CraigMBeckett

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Re: Weapons of Warre: The Ordnance of the Mary Rose
« Reply #13 on: August 01, 2011, 12:54:09 pm »
MMM! have been playing around with the bow data and comparing it with the data I obtained from their artifact database some time ago, (I'm an Engineer, I do things like this to verify data). And have some disturbing results, when comparing the information on the complete bows whose length is both in the artifact data base and published in Weapons of Warre instead of the bows being either the same length or smaller (due to continued drying) over 1/3 are reported to be larger, 35.96% or 32 of the 82 I have two sets of lengths for. Average variation is -5.4m Maximum positive is 71mm max negative is -103mm. These changes in length cannot be explained by changes in the moisture content of the bows, a lot of the changes are far too big for that (40 mm and more), so therefore the accuracy of the results is in question.

I also have had a look to see if amongst the information in "Weapons" I can identify the two bows Hugh Soar published dimensions of. Bow A based on width and depth at the centre could be artifact 81A3958 will have to check extrapolate dimensions at 500 and 800 mm and see if they are close. I can only find one bow whose lenght is close to the 83 inches Soar shows its centre is 39x36, which is not really that close to Soars 41X35mm but it could still be the same bow. This artifact is No 79A0807 will also have to check this one more closely. It is of course possible that neither of the bows are shown in "Weapons".

Craig.



Offline Ian.

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Re: Weapons of Warre: The Ordnance of the Mary Rose
« Reply #14 on: August 01, 2011, 01:58:27 pm »
That is strange, there are many bows its likely that people for the most part are picking up different bows each time. was it the MR who published the first table of measurements and have you got a link to the artifact data base.
ALways happy to help anyone get into heavy weight archery: https://www.facebook.com/bostonwarbowsbows/