What factors cause thin/tight rings?

[toomanyknots]

...other than high altitudes. I have finally figured out that the mulberry with the thin sapwood are the ones with thin rings, the thin rings making the thin sapwood. (I know, I could of just asked, took me a while to figure out too, ). From the mulberrys I have been collecting, sometimes they have small rings, some times they have big rings, and thus bigger sapwood. Even when growing pretty close to each other too. Would the amount of minerals have anything to do with the ring count? Wet or dry growing conditions? Is there anything to give hint of thin to thick rings besides the trees age? 

[DarkSoul]

High altitude by itself does not cause thin rings. It's the growing conditions at high altitude that cause the plant to grow slowly, thus causing thin rights. Thin/tight rings are the cause of very slow growth. There's a lot of factors that may cause a plant to grow slowly. Most commons factors are:
- Temperature not favourable for the plant (often too cold, but could in theory be too warm as well)
- Dry soil
- Lack of nutrients (poor soil, or mineral deficiency)
- Low light conditions (not enough light: plant growing in a valley, or covered by a 'roof' of tree tops from surrounding trees)
- Damage to the plant (disease or pests can adversely affect growth)

In my experience, the sapwood is (depending on the species) usually composed of a set number of rings. Independent whether those rings are fat or thin. In yew, the sapwood is nearly always between 12 and 15 rings, while in black locust it's around 4 to 8. Just two examples from personal experience.

Learning how to 'read' the growing conditions can be interesting and fun. But I'm getting quite good at guessing the ringcount in some species before even cutting the wood.

[toomanyknots]

"But I'm getting quite good at guessing the ringcount in some species before even cutting the wood."

Ha! Ill be there someday! Thank you so much for all the info, it is very much appreciated. I know some mulberrys growing on some rocky soil by a highway I was eyeing, I might half to go check those out tommorow morning. Thanks again.

[gstoneberg]

I would add that the mulberry trees that grew in the fertile Nebraska soil where we used to live had the thickest rings I've personally worked with.  I made 2 bows that had the entire limb in one growth ring.  You're right, they also had the thickest sapwood I ever had to remove.  I also preferred very large mulberry trees inside a grove because they didn't have as many pin knots.  But, once I discovered osage in the area I stopped using mulberry.  In osage, I have sometimes seen where opposing sides of the same tree trunk had wildy varying ring counts.  I suspect it's that way with other woods too, for the reasons that DarkSoul listed.

George

[toomanyknots]

"I have sometimes seen where opposing sides of the same tree trunk had wildy varying ring counts"

Oh I see that all the time.

[Timo]

I cut an Osage out of a hog lot once. It had 3/4" growth rings! made some real sluggish bows.

[Lee Slikkers]

OK, so I've read it both ways...thin ringed Osage is best..thicker rings are better than thin...

Anyone care to help me understand which is correct and the why's behind it?

Thanks~

[gstoneberg]

OK, so I've read it both ways...thin ringed Osage is best..thicker rings are better than thin...

Anyone care to help me understand which is correct and the why's behind it?

Thanks~

Nope.  I've made good bows from tight ringed staves and from thick ring staves.  I pay absolutely no attention to ring counts.  Thick ring staves are slightly easier to chase to a growth ring.  I just worked a stave with extremely tight rings and one with thicker rings.  The thicker ringed stave's limbs were a little thinner at floor tiller.  To me it doesn't matter.  I'm curious what the other guys say...should be interesting.

George

[Del the cat]

I recently had some very dark tight grained Yew.
The limb had been growing vertically but someone had lopped the top off it many many years before hand leaving a smallish branch growing out sideways at the top, my guess is that the lopping slowed it's growth so that it only made very narrow rings after that.
This Yew was near the centre of a big old well spread Yew in the middle of the woods.
Anything that gives you slow growth will presumably give tight rings.
Del

[Timo]

To answer your question?  I don't deal much with our local mulberry, so my experience is limited there, but I do handle alot of Osage and in my area, I have found that there is not one determining factor that I can rely on that will give me any hints as to how good the ring structure is in a given tree.

I cut primarily out of hedge rows and usually look for past cut trees that where taken down by the farmers for corner post. They are the best indicators as to the ring growth in that area. Over the years I have recorded row directions, prevailing winds,soil nutrients,or lack of,High moisture areas, and still there seems to be no conclusion.

All trees in my giving areas seem to hold the same genetic make up as their brothers and sister. whether that is tight rings or large rings.

I don't worry about it much anymore, as any ring ration will still make a bow,some just need to be treated a bit different.

Most people want thicker rings, just easier to chase the back down, but If I had to choose one over the other for cast, then I always go with the tighter ringed wood. Just seems to have more snap.

[crooketarrow]

  I can only speak for osage. I have built 4 or 5 mullberrys but have cut and split and came up with 100's of osage. And have made bows from as lagre as 1RING MAKING THE LIMBS TO SO THIN THAT YOU HAD TO USE THE RING RIGHT UNDER THE SAP WOOD.
 All make good bows to me it has more to do with the stress you put on you limbs when the bow is built. And have kinda settled on rings about 1/8 inch. But what I have take in to acount is I like the staves on the perveling wind side. I don't know other than in my mine if it really matters. Because I've only built 40 or 45 osage bows and when I first started out I was gun ho I never took this into acount.  But bows made from the windward side seams to me to be more snappyer with better cast.

  I do know that osage the higher up in dryer soil have thinner rings and the trees along water have bigger. Tree that had to shoot straight up for sun light also have bigger rings.

[Lee Slikkers]

Thanks Timo & Crooketarrow...from my VERY inexperienced observation all those assumptions seem to make sense and at least fit my currant case in point on my recently harvested Osage.  This particular tree was part of an East/West running hedge row.  That hedge row is also on some fairly dry soil content...it's location is also the highest elevation in the whole county and there is no other wind breaks for 1/2 mile on all sides.  The predominate winds for this field/row come out of the NW probably 75% of the time as we live on the eastern shore of Lake MI.  Anyway, this tree is old growth stuff, most likely 75-100 yrs+.  It is all fairly tight ringed.  I should lay a rule on an end and see what the ring count per inch is...  This is my first go on Osage and for a neophyte I will admit the thin, tight rings have made for a quick, hard tutorial with my scraper BUT I guess if I can learn on this stuff and successfully make a bow then all the better for a short learning curve.

Good topic!

[BowEd]

Made a take down bow once out of billets from two different trees which is a no no but the thicker ringed limb took set quicker during tillering than the thin ringed one.They were both the same moisture etc.This is osage I'm talking about.I guess it's the ratio of early wood to late wood to pay attention to according to the Bowyers Bible.I've got a thin ringed bow counting about 18 rings to the inch here 64 " that had 2" natural back set before tillering that still holds about an inch of reflex after about a 1000 shots at 65 pounds at 28"so I kind of like thin rings for set and snap.But old hedge is good to me any ring count compared to any wood really.You could get into the male/female thing on em too but I'll probaly still come up with the same thoughts on osage.It's just great amazing wood.I'm gonna try some mulberry soon and mine here had a bit more sapwood on it then osage.Rings of 3/16 inch or so.They say it's osages' cousin so we will see.Pretty knarly too.

[BowEd]

Oh a bow making friend of mine far more experienced than me said once to find out the ring count on trees before cutting to take a small plug out of the tree first even knowing the ring thickness can be different from one side to the other.You know the thicker width rings are on the bottom of the tree always.I personally think the amount of moisture it gets makes a big difference but I've cut osage trees within 30 foot of each other and the ring count will be a lot different.It's a good subject here but I don't know if it can be figured out.Only God knows I think....LOL.

[toomanyknots]

"I do know that osage the higher up in dryer soil have thinner rings"

Well I just cut a mulberry that was growing up on some rocky soil by a highway today, and what do ya know it's got this rings. The perfect amount of sapwood to make a mock yew elb. (which was my goal all along)

"Oh a bow making friend of mine far more experienced than me said once to find out the ring count on trees before cutting to take a small plug out of the tree first"

Oh yeah, I say screw it all and cut a little wedge out of the tree with a little handsaw to find out.