Laying out a bow on Osage (what can be done, what can't to get around knots)?

[1776J]

Well fellas, I found myself having been given a decent stave as an added Christmas present from my wife.  We found a local fellow with some osage.

Anyway,... I had to take it down three heartwood rings with a draw bade due to a little hollow area at the one end, so that worked out well.  (got a few light digs in the ring, I'm thinking will be fine as long as they're sanded out n the back and not left?)
Growth rings are medium, decent spacing not close.

It is a nice stave, has a gradual bend (which I'll straighten out later) and has a few pin knots and a small knot pretty much at the center towards the one end.
Stave's width goes from approx 3" - 2 1/2" at the other end. 
It's been sealed on the back with spray shellac.

My question for the fellas here is, I'm a little perplexed as to how to treat the layout of the bow.
The only reason is because of the bow's width and the placement of the knot in it, making me wonder,...

"Can I simply go "around" that knot?...or is it to far from the end of the limb that I better just make it rest in the center of the limb already?"

I've been reading up, looking at "some" photos of layouts, and I've not found an answer to my question,....might be something someone would have to hold in their hands and look at to know one way or the other??

I'm taking some photos,.. they'll be up shortly.
I just wanted to get the question out there for you fellas to start thinking about, maybe you've run into this same issue and can recall what route you took,....when I get the photos up it will clarify what I'm looking at.

Thanks in advance guys!
 

[George Tsoukalas]

If you have ing violations I suggest you go to the next ring, 1776j.The trouble with using a drawknife hen you have a trough to chase is you will automatically violate the ring around it. Best to use a curved scraper or a curved shavehook in that case.
A for knots I usually leave extra wood on the width. I tiller them to appear a little flat so that they are not bending too much. Don't forget you need to follow that laeral or vertical grain tip to tip
See "Making an Osage Bow" and "Bow Layout". Jawge
http://georgeandjoni.home.comcast.net/~georgeandjoni/archer.html

[1776J]

If you have ing violations I suggest you go to the next ring, 1776j.The trouble with using a drawknife hen you have a trough to chase is you will automatically violate the ring around it. Best to use a curved scraper or a curved shavehook in that case.
http://georgeandjoni.home.comcast.net/~georgeandjoni/archer.html

By "violations" I'm assuming you are referring to the slights "digs" I mentioned having been put into the ring of heartwood I took it to? (just want to clarify)

So how would I take off that much wood by not using a draw knife?  I did take out that trough,... that wasn't a problem, in fact that was on one ring, and I actually took it down yet another right past the affected wood, to start clean with a fresh canvas, so to say.
Would that still be acceptable, or would you suggest taking it down another ring, leaving a skim of early wood layer, then just scraping it off with a scraper instead on drawing it off, (even if being careful??) 

A for knots I usually leave extra wood on the width. I tiller them to appear a little flat so that they are not bending too much. Don't forget you need to follow that laeral or vertical grain tip to tip

http://georgeandjoni.home.comcast.net/~georgeandjoni/archer.html

So, as the general rule goes, leave a lump of wood where the knot is (as seen in Bowyer's Bible #1 when they show working with knots)?

As far as the lateral grain goes,... one question there....
There will be a natural taper to the bow going from the widest area of the bow's limbs (let's say 1 1/4" wide for example), to the ends where the nocks are (say 1/2" wide at the ends),
so being that it "tapers from one size to the other, you'll be cutting "into" the grain making that taper, ecven though you are "following the lateral grain" you're still in reality, "cutting into in/aross it, ever so slightly",...
Correct?

I'm just trying to figure out the best layout for the stave I have here.  See if its possible to stay away from the knots if at all possible,.. if not, just work them properly and go from there.

I'm shooting to build a similar style to Ed Scott's owl bows that resemble the Lakota Souix styling,..flat into thinner rounded area. you know?


Thanks George!!

[1776J]

George,..

see this example of the bow I'm looking to build, something very akin to the "Reflex/Reflex" bow at time 5:00 in the seventeen minutes video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bL-9ImBbvXs&NR=1

This will give a good jump off point for any other info from here on in since we can see what style I'm looking to shoot for.
Basically, I'm looking for this profile when its completed... or pretty similar.


Again,...thanks

[gstoneberg]

The lateral grain tapering you're talking about isn't much of an issue because the working part of the limb has very little taper.  Normally I lay my bows out with virtually no taper until it's time to taper into the tips.  At that point there's much less stress on the wood so you can violate the lateral grain and narrow the tips to keep hand shock down.  You do need to follow the grain down the bow.  You can use your draw knife on the sides of the bow to thin the limb and it will naturally follow the grain.  However every limb has a direction it likes to be draw knifed so be careful not to cut into the limb too far by going the wrong way.  Leave some extra width, you can't put wood back on once its off. This is much easier to show than it is to describe.

As far as knots go, it really depends on what the wood has done as to what you do.  If the knot has gotten large enough to have a large discolored area around it you  need to do as Jawge suggested and leave the area stiff with some extra wood.  Smaller knots can be ignored on the belly, though if they rise up on the back you should follow the growth ring up with the knot.  I used to worry about knots but now I don't.  It is wise to try and avoid them right on the edge of the bow as it creates a weak spot.  Better to leave the bow wider at that point so the knot is inside the limb.  I try to lay out bows so that knots are either in the handle or close to the limb tips where the stress is lower.

Ring violation is where you cut through the ring, compromising the back fibers that run from handle to tip.  Tool marks are OK, though they should eventually be sanded out.  Gouges are not OK and should be avoided.  If your ring is nice and thick you may be able to gently scrape the gouge away, but it's best to not cut into the ring at all.  Interestingly, cracks in the bow back that run from handle to tip are OK as long as they don't run out to the side of the bow.  When you come to dips in the wood you follow the growth ring.  It cannot be done with a draw knife as Jawge has pointed out.

Don't know if that answered your questions or not.  I suspect all of this was on Jawge's web site.

George

[osage outlaw]

Here is how I worked around a knot in a HHB stave.  The knot was on the edge of the limb.



A lot of times, if you study the grain, it will go around a knot similar to water going around a boulder in a stream. 

[1776J]

You can use your draw knife on the sides of the bow to thin the limb and it will naturally follow the grain.  However every limb has a direction it likes to be draw knifed so be careful not to cut into the limb too far by going the wrong way. 

Yes, I decided to do a test run of sorts and see if there would be any difference in going one way or the other when using the draw knife.  The fact that it went only ONE WAY showed up right away!  So, naturally, I went with the way the grain wanted to be worked.

As far as knots go, it really depends on what the wood has done as to what you do.  If the knot has gotten large enough to have a large discolored area around it you  need to do as Jawge suggested and leave the area stiff with some extra wood. 

The knots are not very big at all,... as opposed to many I have seen in photos here and there.  You have to see it to know what I'm dealing with so the area with the knots is shown in this photo here....see what I mean. 
But I'm toying with the thought of,...
"Can I get around these or is it just to tricky and I could very well just ruin a good piece of wood at this point???"

Smaller knots can be ignored on the belly, though if they rise up on the back you should follow the growth ring up with the knot.  I used to worry about knots but now I don't.  It is wise to try and avoid them right on the edge of the bow as it creates a weak spot.  Better to leave the bow wider at that point so the knot is inside the limb.  I try to lay out bows so that knots are either in the handle or close to the limb tips where the stress is lower.

Unfortunately, this knot area would be almost exactly 12" from where the limb end would be! 

Ring violation is where you cut through the ring, compromising the back fibers that run from handle to tip.

Nope, didn't do that, only made very mild dings into the ring,...should sand out fairly well. I'll have to inspect it all closer.

Tool marks are OK, though they should eventually be sanded out. 

I should be OK then....

Gouges are not OK and should be avoided.  If your ring is nice and thick you may be able to gently scrape the gouge away, but it's best to not cut into the ring at all.  Interestingly, cracks in the bow back that run from handle to tip are OK as long as they don't run out to the side of the bow.  When you come to dips in the wood you follow the growth ring.  It cannot be done with a draw knife as Jawge has pointed out.

Really?  When I came to the rises and dips, I just took it down till it still have a thin layer of that good crunchy earlywood and then used the draw knife as a scraper, steadying my hand and actually holding the blade not the handle,... actually worked out, ?I just took my time, paid close attention.  Of course very small variations of the wood, I could not get. 



Don't know if that answered your questions or not.  I suspect all of this was on Jawge's web site.

George
[/quote]

[1776J]

Photos of the stave in question.
You'll see what I'm talking about with my notions of thinking that I'm wondering if these knots can be avoided or not?
***(Keep in mind, I was planning on putting sinew on the back side of this 58" bow.)***

Let me know your thoughts boys! 

***(Disregard my sloppy drawn lines, just roughed it in loosely late one evening!!,...)*** 

Looking at stave from on top


Down the stave


Another look,..similar vantage point...


The lines show what I've been contemplating.
"could it be done safely?...SHOULD it even be done/tried???"


Area of knots in question,... go around the center of stave with knots, or just include that center area in the bow???


OR, should I include the knot area as shown by red arrows??


Side view


Side view of stave same area


Back/belly of stave so far, (untouched)


End closest to knots in question...


Other end, farthest away from end with knots

[gstoneberg]

Wow, you spent some time on those posts. It really helps.   A couple things. 

First, if you're sinew backing the bow you don't need to worry about ring violations and tool marks.  In fact, you can draw knife your bow back completely flat, ignoring the natural layout of the wood if you're sinew backing.  That's because the sinew becomes the bow's back and carries the load of tension instead of the fibers of wood.  Your bow cannot lift a slivver because the sinew is protecting it.  Ring violations, gouges, tool marks can all be ignored.  I rough up the bow back with a hack saw blade before gluing on the sinew so a tool mark is of no consequence.

Second, the answer to your layout question is clear from the grain in the wood.  If you look at the picture where you drew in red around the knot, you will clearly see that your red lines follow the natural lateral grain lines in the wood.  Moving the bow to the right to avoid the knot violates the lateral grain and it's really obvious in that picture because the grain shows up in the darker brown lines in the yellow wood.  Where your black lines leave the brown lines in the wood is where the violation occurs.  I suspect it would still work as you laid it out, and with sinew on it I'm positive it would work.  However, there's no need and the bow will be easier to taper/tiller on the belly if you keep the center of the bow in the center of the stave.

If that were my stave I would lay that bow out right down the center of the wood.  None of those knots look bad enough to me to change the bow layout to avoid them.  By the way, a bow layout is like a budget.  It's what you plan to do.  What you really do is determined by what you encounter as you go along.    Sinew backing frees you up to do almost anything you want.  But I have to be honest, that is such a nice piece of wood that I'd not sinew back it if it were mine.  That is an exceptionally nice stave. 

Good luck.
George

[Dean Marlow]

That is a really good Osage stave. If it was me I mark it right down the middle and put that cluster of pins in the bow. The main thing you want to do is follow the grain. Cutting threw the grain will cause your bow to break more easily than a few pin knots. Nice set of pictures also. Thanks for sharing. Dean

[1776J]

Guys,..Thanks a MILLION for the comments.  This clrears things up entirely for me!!!!!!
THANK YOU GUYS SO MUCH!!

It's great to have access to good helpful fellas like yourselves.  Some of those things that were mentioned by George and Dean were things that I was leaning towards thinking were right and correct and thinking of heading in those directions, but I really needed confirmation of it. 
Thank you for that confirmation and clarity!

I'll keep you guys up to date with this as it progresses.  Though I've been ordered by my pregnant wife (Baby's due Jan 11th!!) that I need to take care of a few things "before" I start working that stave again!  HA! Gotta make the crazy lady with the belly happy first! haha!!

(and Dean,..looking forward to that piece of Osage) 

[George Tsoukalas]

I don't like that layout depicted with the black lines around the knot. I think it may break there. I much prefer the layout shown by the red lines in the knotted area. Also, I am a little confused as the why you went so far to the right for the layout. Is there a reason? I usually draw a line down the middle of the stave following the lateral grain and then measure on either side of the line but leaving enough wood around knots so that the grain swirls.  Jawge

[George Tsoukalas]

Please look at this.
http://georgeandjoni.home.comcast.net/~georgeandjoni/layout.html

[George Tsoukalas]

And this.
http://georgeandjoni.home.comcast.net/~georgeandjoni/osage.html

[George Tsoukalas]

Thanks for helping out, George. Jawge