Standarts of accuracy

[sagitarius boemoru]

This is something Rod brought up while ago.
Altough I think a sporting bow accuracy should not be used as comparative discipline a heavy bow shooter, apart of being able to pull his bow should be able to comand his bow safely, he also should be able to actually hit something.

Too often we see a big boy with 120# bow annoying other archers whillst hes got something like 40 degrees wide spread.

A medieval standard would be something like shooting a single man between 70-100 yards or less and a group of men or a horses at your maximum range, means 200-240 and more.

Now Assuming our man is in armour hell be like 70 cm wide and lets say 180 cm high.

I m proposing a 3X as wide target for  maximum distance shooting. Or a target which will eqal fromt profile of a single mid sized horse.

Now this would be probably absolute minimum required to shoot with any reasonable repeatability, though there is enough sniper shots in the record from which we might assume that some medieval archer were much better shot.

Also you are likelly to have succes on low edge of warbow spectrum and in the case you understand how to make an excellent arrow.

(Again I think that some of medieval archers understood well how to sellect components for arrows and how to tune their bows to perform well, whillst others have been handling just military issue equipment.)


Anybody can say "I sho this and that", but unless we set a benchmark target and distance and record accuracy, we cant tell how this side of heavy bow shooting really looks like.



Jaro

[duffontap]

Very interesting Jaro.  It is easy to concentrate only on gaining poundage and distance but the accuracy side is important as well.  With the time, materials, and care that go into creating a good war arrow (felling a tree, splitting, milling by hand, planing and tapering, splining and shaping nocks, fletching, wrapping, gluing, sealing, and smithing a bodkin) it seems unlikely that archers would just shoot at random unless they were firing into a mass of people. 

I'll post a little more when I have a chance to shoot a few arrows at those ranges for accuracy. 

              J. D. Duff

[D. Tiller]

Wish I could find somewhere to shoot that far. My accuracy at 50 yards still sucks so I would be one of those guys that would not be able to hit the broad side of the barn at 200 yards.  Any of you ever notice how hard it is to hit something close to the ground as apposed to man height? Trying to get ready to hunt with my bow for wild hogs sometime in the future but have a hard time hitting anything lower than man height. I'm putting out some old stuffed burlap bags and shooting at them. Its tough!

I have heard the old story of archers putting arrows througn visor slits at 200 yards but thing this might be an exageration. How about you guys, you getting this type of accuracy? 

David T

[Stonedog]

I could not agree more.  What use is being able to pull a big bow if you cannot hit anything with it?  My area of interest it way before the the golden age of the Warbow....meaning the 100 Years War and the War of the Roses.....my interests lie with the hunting applications, pre-Conquest. 

As I am a hunter, not a target (although I do shoot target, just not in competition) shooter, I have no interest in pulling anything over 60#.....with this weight I can pull it back at a deer after sitting for 3 hours in 30 degree weather....or make a snap shot at a rabbit or hare as well....

As far as military archery and pulling the "big bows".....archers in the army of Edward III for example.....it was mass fire power.....putting as much steel into the air as possible......and shooting at a huge mass of men, horse and armor.....

Now I am not saying that these yeomen could not hit a small target...they could....they shot at a bracelet size target at varying distances....upward sto 100 yards (I believe).....but archers then were started out young.....until it became second nature....

[sagitarius boemoru]

It is obvious that they were reasonable shot. It was certainly not "mass firepower" only.  There is plenty of record of decent sniper shot.

This is warbow forum, so we speak warbows. I m not interested in hersay or "who shot what where".

My intention is to set a benchmark for accuracy very much like english "Standart arrow" is a benchmark for judgement of bow´s cast.
If youre heavy bow archer first thing you get asked is "how far you shoot standart".
I want a set of target within military requirements and  also a chart in which the results be ready availble.


I think that most so said "heavy bow archers" wont be able to get any decent success.

J.

[outcaste]

Hi,

The Longbow should be seen as the 'machine gun' of its age. With maximum effectiveness when used with massed ranks against massed ranks. It is impossible to hit an individual at its max range of 200-300 yards (unless you are very lucky!). It is my understanding and please someone correct me if I am mistaken that training to meet the statutory 220 yards would also involve placing ones arrows on a target 20 yards wide. This is very achievable. When a target is at say point blank (20/50 yards) its not that hard to hit a man-sized target.

Back in England I have 'roved' with archers with 'heavy' and other types of bows that involed reaching marks over varing distances/terrain and I would certainly not want to take my chances by standing too close to these marks!

There are also guys out there who can hit a squirrels 'nuts' off at 30 yards with 120lb+ bows!

Cheers, Outcaste

[Lloyd]

OK, here's my take. While it's true that there are records of sniper style shooting with a warbow I think the major application of the warbow is to delivery a heavy arrow at long ranges mostly via plunging fire. Especially if we are talking 14-15 century standards. As Jaro says the first question for a heavy bow shooter is how far can you shoot a standard arrow? In the same vein I think the measure of accuracy should not be measured in terms of target archery but in terms of clout shooting. How close can you regularly come to the flag at a distance of at least 150 yards, and if you can throw a standard arrow over 200 yards then 200 should be the distance. Once you master that then start working on target or hunting type shooting. Just my opinion. So now get the flame throwers out;-)...

Lloyd

[D. Tiller]

One other thing I think is that there was a steady increase in the draw weight over time. I bet early warbows where only pulling in the 80 - 90 pound range or less and steadly increased in weight as armor improved over time. I believe, and someone correct me here if I'm wrong, that at the battle of Crecy that the standard armor of knights was still chain mail. A bow in the 80 - 90 pound range or a bit less can easily punch through this with bodkin points as test have proven. Arrows might also have been in the 3/8ths inch thick range then also instead of the 1/2 inch range. This is just speculation on my part but seems logical. Now to build my next warbow at 80#'s!!! 

David T

[perry]

   I agree with Lloyd and David T . The romance and and legend surrounding the warbows of medievil england do tend to cloud peoples expectations of what is acheivable accuracy wise . There will always be exceptional individuals that are capable of truely incredible feats of accuracy -masters of the warbow , as there will always be incredibly lucky shots , we all have them occasionally . As a medievil knight or soldier I would be very nervous inside 250 yards , just the thought of one ,hundreds or thousands of arrows dropping around me would tend to make one question there mortality .

[duffontap]

A 1000 grain arrow can hit maximum range in a couple seconds.  Imagine how poorly you would fight if you had to visually scan the sky every three seconds.   

            J. D. Duff

[sagitarius boemoru]

The Longbow should be seen as the 'machine gun' of its age. With maximum effectiveness when used with massed ranks against massed ranks. It is impossible to hit an individual at its max range of 200-300 yards (unless you are very lucky!). It is my understanding and please someone correct me if I am mistaken that training to meet the statutory 220 yards would also involve placing ones arrows on a target 20 yards wide. This is very achievable. When a target is at say point blank (20/50 yards) its not that hard to hit a man-sized target.

- That is again a popular book blable.Think again before producing something like this.
 There was nothing like 20 yards wide target for long marks. Traditional target involves a 6´ tall white board set up on green pasture which is shot at.
A remnant of true medieval shooting si clout. This is exactly the type of discipline we are talking about. While to hit a single man at these distances its unlikely, to hit a small group or horse is very much doable and it does not involves a 20 yards wide spread.

Shooting a dozen of arrows with heavy bow to the 5 yrds circle at maximum range, with one or two deviantshould be just about normal.


Again this is the way I did not want to moderate this thread. I wrote clearly we should not heed any hersay.

If you do the thing and have something to say about it, write, if you only heard something or read in books, dont.

E.G. an input from an experienced clout archer is welcomed, input from somebody who describes accuracy at 30 yrds with target arrowheads is in relation to this equipment and type of archery very much worthless.




Jaro

[sagitarius boemoru]

As I said purpose of this thread was not a discussion about "who can hit what with something".

If you cannot do something you always find somebody who can.

But as stated I would very much like to have a set of benchmark targets which would test heavy archers also in accuracy apart from the ability to draw heavy weight.

A single man sized target between 70 and 100 yrds and a 3/4 man group sized target at maximum range (200 yrds+) is my proposition.

To be shot with an arrow at least 3 oz (75 gram).


Jaro

[outcaste]

Jaro

If you are refering to myself then I can asure you that I very much do this. Now as I said in my 'blabble' that I may be mistaken with regards to hitting a target 20 yards wide. I was trying to remember some comtemporary text that I had read a while ago!

I am a practising archer who makes his own kit (maybe not the best read!) but  have a practical knowledge of doing this for real (Military/Standatd arrow, Roving and Clout). I do feel that your tone is a little harsh to say the least and not what I would expect from the forum

Outcaste

[sagitarius boemoru]

Look. I write things once, then twice, then my tone gets harsh. Yes people complain. Some.
I m just not patient to write all the time the same thing again.

Here we go with your remark about target 20 yards wide - you dont know where you read it, the credibility of such an information is basicaly zero, yet its presented as if it actually had some.
We know both through contemporary record and also by testing that heavy bow kit and archer should be quite capable of much better accuracy even in terms of individual aimed hits, so sanity check says its just off.
Hence "blable".

When I start dispute anything, I attempt for a simple and logic definition. Sudenly a whole lots of people appear who basically dont bring information of any value or a logic insight. They just sloganeer.

I hate it and get pissed off, so expect me to be harsh.

What I expected as discussion to the thema was whatever is viable to set up a set of targets of known dimensions and distance, which everybody could use, chart our progress on internet and evalute what is or what is not possible in terms of heavy bow shooting. Now check the discussion, how many people are actually reffering to the point.

Not interested in hersay, urban legends or squirell shooting.

J.

[outcaste]

I do love all these warm and fuzzy moments.