Small fissure crack between two knots, should I be concerned????!!!!

[1776J]

Hello fellas!

New to the board, but have been lurking now and then and of course reading the magazine from time to time for a little while now.

My question is in regards to the fact that I had bought a U-Finish bow from a very reputable bow company and after having taken out the file marks while sanding it down
and working it up to approx. 100-150 grit sandpaper, a small crack was apparent as the dust from sanding got caught in it.
I noticed it by the time I was using 60 grit, but wanted to know if it was simply a deep scratch that wasn't coming out right away so I moved on and got to about 150 grit
and noticed it was still there.

It is located between two very small knots in the main body of the bow (Bow is made of Osage with a Hickory backing).
The knots are approximately 1/8" in size and pretty much on either side of the bow's body with the crack being pretty much dead center between the two of them.
The crack is approximately 1/4" long, running side to side.
I'm going to try and include a photo of the issue for your fellows.

Is this something I should be concerned with?  I'm assuming I should be worried,..heck it's a horizontal crack and it's never been shot!!,.....but being that this is my first bow build (well half a bow build at least!)   I am relatively new to bow making so I' learning!
Looking for some knowledgeable guidance/opinions here from fellows who know.

Thanks in advance!!
 

[JW_Halverson]

Since you started working on the bow, I don't know if they would accept it as a return, but you will have to contact the dealer to get that worked out. 

I can't say for certain that it will fail, but I share you concerns.  If I had been making the bow, I would have relegated that piece of osage to the "not likely" pile due to the knots so close to the edge of the bow.  I make stave bows from osage and work diligently to get those knots well inside of the edges of the limbs just because they serve to focus stress.  I think they may be directly related to the crack on the belly that you see. 

As for the gaps in the glue line, again, that's something in my work that I would cull from my work pile.  I can't imagine they are healthy.  But that is something that the laminate crowd on here should chime in on...KnightD, robustus, you wanna get this one?

[Little John]

The crack apears to be ca compression fracture or chrysal where the belly wood fibers get crushed. In my experience osage hardly ever gets these chrysals. They will cause set or string follow and mioght eventually cause the bow to fail.There is not much you can do for it except sand it away and take a light weight bow. The knots are very close to the edge, I do not make laminated bows but in a self bow you would leave that section of the limb wide and the wood grain to flow around the knot. It might work on a laminated bow. The glue line looks sloppy to me but might work fine as I am not a laminate man.  I am sure better bowyers than I will chime in. You can try for a refund or guarantee or just see where it takes you and learn from it. L.O.L.    Kenneth

[1776J]

JW,...

It's frustrating as the crack was in no way apparent before I started in on the sanding.  Only when I got it down from the rough file marks did it show up as it smoothed out.  So, without working on it, that crack was
in no way visible.  I, of course, being a beginner, wouldn't know any better either way,...(as to the placement of the knots being where they are)?
So, I'm at a total loss here until I'm able to call the fellow I've been in contact with at the company.  I'm going to be positive and say that after he sees the issue, and realizes the circumstances surrounding the fact that
the crack was completely invisible until the bow was sanded up, then hopefully this can be remedied with another in better working condition perhaps?

I strung the bow a few minutes ago and I could swear that the crack is growing a bit from when I took the photos.  You can't see the rest of it as much as you can feel it a bit.  In addition there's a very small
fissure running vertically beside the one knot that I just noticed in the light.  That one's about 1/8" long vertically.

[1776J]

The crack apears to be ca compression fracture or chrysal where the belly wood fibers get crushed. In my experience osage hardly ever gets these chrysals. They will cause set or string follow and mioght eventually cause the bow to fail.There is not much you can do for it except sand it away and take a light weight bow. The knots are very close to the edge, I do not make laminated bows but in a self bow you would leave that section of the limb wide and the wood grain to flow around the knot. It might work on a laminated bow. The glue line looks sloppy to me but might work fine as I am not a laminate man.  I am sure better bowyers than I will chime in. You can try for a refund or guarantee or just see where it takes you and learn from it. L.O.L.    Kenneth

So it's a "ca compression" crack?  Hmm,... I'll have to research exactly what that is.  So by what you're saying, it's as if this was a bum piece of osage to have worked from when it was picked perhaps?  Sad to think that, if that is indeed the case?

Well, in all honesty, "learning from it" isn't in the cards for me really, especially financially. 
I mean, the fact is, it's a first try, sure, but at quite a good cost to my pocketbook.  We're going to be having our first child soon, in a little over a month and when you're
saving up for the little guy, and your wife says, "hey, it will be your Christmas present..." it's much more than a learning experience...not easy to laugh at unfortunately.
Completely upsetting is more like it.

[Little John]

I feel your pain, most likely the deeler will replace the wood with another and better piece. Has the bow been tillered? shot in? how long, wide and how many pounds draw at what draw length?   I don't know for sure it is a compression fret but it appears to be, I have run into them with hickory but not osage. Never had aa bow die from them.     Kenneth

[1776J]

I feel your pain, most likely the deeler will replace the wood with another and better piece. Has the bow been tillered? shot in? how long, wide and how many pounds draw at what draw length?   I don't know for sure it is a compression fret but it appears to be, I have run into them with hickory but not osage. Never had aa bow die from them.     Kenneth

Let's hope so!??
So, far I've heard from the fellow and have been told to put in some warm superglue into the crack, then lightly sand it down. 
Of course the first thing on my mind was, "why should I be "fixing" a brand new bow I've never shot with??"   

The bow was tillered, not shot in though.  It's an English War Bow/Longbow in style, but on the light side of things, having a 54# draw at 27". 
I would have gone with a heavier draw weight but I have a bit of a bum shoulder, nothing to bad though,...hahaha,...at least not yet!

[1776J]

I keep looking at this area of the bow, examining it under the light and I'm seeing more issues,...feeling that main crack running past where you can see it in the photos. 

See notes in photo.

[Pat B]

I'd think a reputable dealer would send you a new glue up after seeing where the frets(compression fracture) are; between two knots and each along the edge of the limb. Is that another knot on the edge by the fret or the same knot? That glue line alone should warrent a new glue up!

[1776J]

I'd think a reputable dealer would send you a new glue up after seeing where the frets(compression fracture) are; between two knots and each along the edge of the limb. Is that another knot on the edge by the fret or the same knot? That glue line alone should warrent a new glue up!

Yes, what you are seeing is one knot running from side to side,... so yes, basically two knots,... one on the left side,...one on the right.
I was told to warm up some superglue and put it in the crack for some insurance.  That just doesn't seem right???.... Superglue a NEW U-Fuinish bow?  It ran me upwards of $260 bucks!  
I may not be a veteran bowyer, but that crack just isn't right!

In reference to the glue lam, I am told via email response to my issues by the owner of the company I'm dealing with this evening that, quote,
"On the lamination seem we use toothing grooves to give the glue something to grab. It cannot be seamless because the glue needs something to grab. A bow joint is not a normal glue up because it has to take a lot of serious punishment each time the bow slams home. that is why we dig deep grooves into both glue surfaces before mating them up. The toothing grooves can oftentimes be seen on the edges. Again if they have air bubbles in them as you are seeing in the picture . just fill them with superglue so that the finish will be even."

I don't have much to go by since I'm new to bow building.   

[Pat B]

Thats a bunch of crap!!! That is a bad glue joint. Even with toothed glue surfaces you should not see much of a glue line and NO gaps.  Did he tell you which glue he used? Some glues like a toothed surfaces and some prefer smooth surfaces for best performance. The cracks in the center of the knots shouldn't be a problem if you do add a bit of super glue. I do it all the time. Having a knot running through the limb is not acceptable.   His price seems quite high too...especially for what he sent you.

[1776J]

Thats a bunch of crap!!! That is a bad glue joint. Even with toothed glue surfaces you should not see much of a glue line and NO gaps.  Did he tell you which glue he used? Some glues like a toothed surfaces and some prefer smooth surfaces for best performance. The cracks in the center of the knots shouldn't be a problem if you do add a bit of super glue. I do it all the time. Having a knot running through the limb is not acceptable.   His price seems quite high too...especially for what he sent you.

That's pretty much what I was thinking, but, being cautious and mainly to be a gentleman, I refrained from getting aggravated.

Yes, I too thought they might seem a little high as well.
Wasn't sure though....

[medicinewheel]

... That glue line alone should warrent a new glue up!

PERIOD!

[1776J]

Also,...
Would it be easier to adjust and get the right nocking in the right place by using nocked horn tips?

[Del the cat]

It's simple really... even without the crack it's no good, the glue line will fail send it back.
Glue itself has no strength, so it shouldn't have any thickness showing at all, there should be virtually no glue line visible, a line like that will certainly fail.
I'd say you have a good eye, and deep down you know both problems are no good, you just wanted us to confirm your worst fears.
Unfortunately with bow making most often your worst fears are right!
Better luck with the next one.
Oh, on the subject of nocks, tip overlays will help, you don't really want to be cutting into the back of the bow with the grooves. Traditional English Longbow horn nocks are not recomended as they are a lot of work and no better than a nice little overlay. A smaller loop on the string might help.
Del