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Author Topic: Would this work for handle placement?  (Read 3892 times)

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Offline toomanyknots

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Would this work for handle placement?
« on: October 27, 2010, 12:19:21 am »
53" bow nock to nock

7" non working handle.

bottom limb: 22 1/4"
top    limb: 23 3/4"

from center toward the bottom limb, 4 1/4" of handle.
from center toward the top limb, 2 3/4" of handle.   

arrow pass will be between these two measurements, making the arrow pass at the center of the bow.

Would this work?
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"The way of heaven is like the bending of a bow-
 the upper part is pressed down,
 the lower part is raised up,
 the part that has too much is reduced,
 the part that has too little is increased."

- Tao Te Ching, 77, A new translation by Victor H. Mair

Offline Pat B

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Re: Would this work for handle placement?
« Reply #1 on: October 27, 2010, 12:25:02 am »
There is no reason for it not to work from what you have shown. Where are you heading with it?  Lots of unknowns...what bow wood, draw weight, draw length, front profile, tiller profile.  ???
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Make the most of all that comes and the least of all that goes!    Pat Brennan  Brevard, NC

Offline toomanyknots

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Re: Would this work for handle placement?
« Reply #2 on: October 27, 2010, 12:39:02 am »
Draw weight: Any weight.

Draw length: 28"
 
Wood: Any wood that would work, backed with sinew to reach the draw length.

Front profile/tiller profile: Any profile, but most like a pyramid taper with the same thickness. I am mostly stumped on if a pyramid cookie cutter bow style with the same thickness all the way down will work with a handle placement as this. I wanted the arrow pass to be in the center of the bow, but the handle to be comfortable and have the arrow right above the hand, so to make the arrow pass at the top of the handle but the center of the bow. I think you answered a question like this a while ago for me, but I couldn't find the thread, sorry for asking so many questions,  ;)
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"The way of heaven is like the bending of a bow-
 the upper part is pressed down,
 the lower part is raised up,
 the part that has too much is reduced,
 the part that has too little is increased."

- Tao Te Ching, 77, A new translation by Victor H. Mair

Offline Justin Snyder

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Re: Would this work for handle placement?
« Reply #3 on: October 27, 2010, 10:58:46 am »
Im not going to say it can't be done because it has, but making a 28" draw length bow that short with that long of a stiff handle will be difficult. It would almost have to be recurved and have some setback in the handle unless you make some specialized design like sinew backed horn bow in mind.
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SW Utah

Offline Pat B

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Re: Would this work for handle placement?
« Reply #4 on: October 27, 2010, 11:04:39 am »
I agree with Justin!   How many wood bows have you built?
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Make the most of all that comes and the least of all that goes!    Pat Brennan  Brevard, NC

Offline toomanyknots

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Re: Would this work for handle placement?
« Reply #5 on: October 27, 2010, 11:52:51 am »
Oh yes I am definitely going to sinew it. I have thought about it, and have decided that I do not want to try my hand yet at an asymmetrical bow. Instead, to get a symmetrical bow with arrow pass right at center, I am going to do a 9" handle for comfort, (and looks). I sure don't know what weight to expect. I just hope it's either not too under weight (kinda doubting that) or too over weight at 2/8ths of an inch, and now a 9" handle I have decided on-

53" end to end (before siyahs are glued on, after siyahs 51" end to end

9" handle.

Bottom limb: 22 " from handle.
Top    limb: 22 " from handle.

Arrow pass approximately center of handle.

Siyahs glue area at 2" at end of limb, reducing each limb by two inches, equaling 20" limbs.

Pyramid taper, 2 1/2" to 1/2"

Thickness taper from start of handle to limb: 1 1/2"

Continuous limb thickness of 2/8"

Siyahs 5 1/2" long.

Will sinew back the bow before tillering. Going for a 28" draw, believe it or not. Hopefully Weight will be between 50# to 70#. What do you guys think? Suggestions? Will the red oak just give in and just flop???
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"The way of heaven is like the bending of a bow-
 the upper part is pressed down,
 the lower part is raised up,
 the part that has too much is reduced,
 the part that has too little is increased."

- Tao Te Ching, 77, A new translation by Victor H. Mair

Offline Pat B

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Re: Would this work for handle placement?
« Reply #6 on: October 27, 2010, 02:39:02 pm »
If you put the arrow pass at the center of the bow your bow will be assymetrical! When I set up a symmetrical bow I make the center of the handle the center of the bow. This puts the arrow pass about 1" to 1 1/2" above center but both limbs are the same length.
   For that short of a bow your non-bending handle is way too long and eliminated working portions of the limb that will be needed for a successful bow. I would bring the working limbs right up to or even through the handle on a short bow.
  I'm sure it is all possible but IMO you are setting yourself up for disappointment. If it were me I would go with a longer working portion(especially for 28" draw) of the limbs which would make the overall length of the bow longer. If that works out for you make the next a bit shorter and so on until you get to the very short bow you desire.
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Make the most of all that comes and the least of all that goes!    Pat Brennan  Brevard, NC

Offline toomanyknots

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Re: Would this work for handle placement?
« Reply #7 on: October 27, 2010, 02:53:24 pm »
I'm going to go ahead and take your advice pat. I think I'm starting to scare myself, :) But kinda confused here, would a handle in the center of the bow with the arrow pass in the center of the handle be called a symmetrical bow?
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"The way of heaven is like the bending of a bow-
 the upper part is pressed down,
 the lower part is raised up,
 the part that has too much is reduced,
 the part that has too little is increased."

- Tao Te Ching, 77, A new translation by Victor H. Mair

Offline Pat B

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Re: Would this work for handle placement?
« Reply #8 on: October 27, 2010, 03:07:25 pm »
If the handle is in the center of the bow the arrow pass can't be. It would be above the handle.  To me a symmetrical bow has both limbs the same length. With an assymetrical bow the bottom limb is generally shorter and with this you can have the arrow pass in the center of the bow.
  Why do you want the arrow pass in the center of the bow?
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Make the most of all that comes and the least of all that goes!    Pat Brennan  Brevard, NC

Offline Justin Snyder

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Re: Would this work for handle placement?
« Reply #9 on: October 27, 2010, 03:57:09 pm »
Honestly, I think you are getting in over your head. Try something a little closer to 60" in the same style. After you get the experience of doing that you can shorten up to 53". I don't mean to underestimate you or hurt your feelings, just trying to save you a lot of headaches.
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SW Utah

Offline Mark Anderson

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Re: Would this work for handle placement?
« Reply #10 on: October 27, 2010, 04:04:23 pm »
I don't know how many bows you've built but when I started, before I learned from many on this forum, I built my handles WAY to long, in the seven or eight inch range with 1 1/2" fades. Several guys here encouraged me to make shorter handles so I did and what a difference. I'm 6'2" and have meaty hands but a 4" handle is all I need and that leaves 3 or 4 more inches of working limb than I had before.
Also just my opinion, but I find it much nicer to have the forward pressure of my bow hand resting on the center of the bow with the arrow pass 1-1 1/2" above. Just seems to balance better.
Mark
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Offline George Tsoukalas

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Re: Would this work for handle placement?
« Reply #11 on: October 27, 2010, 04:10:19 pm »
It's too short even for a sinew backed bend in the handle bow for a 28" draw.    Apart from being way under built it will stack incredibly as you approach full draw. You can tell I do  not like short bows. A good safe design is double your draw and add 10-20%. :) Jawge
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Offline toomanyknots

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Re: Would this work for handle placement?
« Reply #12 on: October 27, 2010, 04:11:17 pm »
Naw pat, my reason for a nine inch handle is to place the bow hand on the 4 1/2" below the arrow pass. Making the bow symmetrical. The reason a symmetrical bow is it is easier for me to make, I just cut out dimensions perfect and I never have to tiller. Lazy, :) Course, then theres the thing of if the pressure is one spot, like I think you said you can't shoot threw your hand, and the arrow isn't, isn't that asymmetrical then? And then if you pull any other way than across your chest the arrow has a way of moving up, making the bow work asymmetrically. Right? I think so anyway...

"Honestly, I think you are getting in over your head. Try something a little closer to 60" in the same style."

"It's too short even for a sinew backed bend in the handle bow for a 28" draw."

Well that is definitely not encouraging george, :). I was just looking at lots of turkish bows 40" - 50" nock to nock that pull 28". They have nonbending handles. I know that the sinew will not go, so are you saying the wood will? I'm more worried about the wood, I'm using red oak. OH, and my fades were not on the handle I mean, I mean that is the thickness fade right out from the handle from 6/8" to 3/8".
« Last Edit: October 27, 2010, 04:26:35 pm by toomanyknots »
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"The way of heaven is like the bending of a bow-
 the upper part is pressed down,
 the lower part is raised up,
 the part that has too much is reduced,
 the part that has too little is increased."

- Tao Te Ching, 77, A new translation by Victor H. Mair

Offline Pat B

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Re: Would this work for handle placement?
« Reply #13 on: October 27, 2010, 05:05:56 pm »
Red oak is not a good option for this type of bow. It doesn't have the strength needed for such a highly stressed bow.
  Turkish(horn bows) are a whole different ball game. If you want to build a Turkish type horn bow, be prepared for lots of experiments and almost as many failures. They are highly stressed and their construction is very precise with many components and lots of time envolved in their making.
  I'll ask again, how many wood bows have you built?
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Make the most of all that comes and the least of all that goes!    Pat Brennan  Brevard, NC

Offline ken75

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Re: Would this work for handle placement?
« Reply #14 on: October 27, 2010, 05:40:24 pm »
toomany you have been given sound advice , center the handle ,arrow pass inch or so above, and symetrical limbs. and also red oak isnt the best choice . that being said here is an example of 54 inch tip to tip with static recurves 48lbs at 28 inch draw . and hickory would be one of my choices for holding this thing together. there is no backing material just snake skinned

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