Traditional English Draw

[CraigMBeckett]

De Wavrin had been in the French ranks at Agincourt and later worked for the English as a captain of Burgundian mercenaries. I consider him a credible witness. As he clearly specifies three fingers, I guess we can throw out the speculative fantasy of the defiant English archers two finger salute. Three finger salute anyone?

MMM! not necessary, If an archer used 2 fingers then no matter what or how many fingers were going to be chopped off by the dastardly French  , the archer would probably only wave the two he used, or, if the original "salute " were a three fingered one, it could easily have morphed over the years to a two fingered one, especially as so may people believe that the Agincourt archers used only two fingers and this may have lead to a "correction" in the gesture.

Craig.

[bow-toxo]

De Wavrin had been in the French ranks at Agincourt and later worked for the English as a captain of Burgundian mercenaries. I consider him a credible witness. As he clearly specifies three fingers, I guess we can throw out the speculative fantasy of the defiant English archers two finger salute. Three finger salute anyone?

MMM! not necessary, If an archer used 2 fingers then no matter what or how many fingers were going to be chopped off by the dastardly French  , the archer would probably only wave the two he used, or, if the original "salute " were a three fingered one, it could easily have morphed over the years to a two fingered one, especially as so may people believe that the Agincourt archers used only two fingers and this may have lead to a "correction" in the gesture.

Craig.

 To add to the idle speculation, if the original “salute” were a one fingered one, it could easily have morphed into a two fingered one.  But let’s try something wild, like looking at the evidence. RE“if an archer used. two fingers” We are considering men using very powerful longbows. Wavrin=three fingers Toxophilus=three fingers.  Roi Modus=three fingers,  Lartdarcherie=three fingers. while ??=two fingers. Sorry, I don’t have a reference for that one.No doubt a two finger advocate will supply one, but please no the late mediaeval illustrations for Froissart. Anyone who thinks a warbow archer Would draw with two
fingertips is welcome to try it.

Mediaeval writings ? I remind people who consider written material useless, that we wouldn’t even know about the battle if Agincourt wlthout the accounts of English, Burgundian and Belgian wrters of the period, none of which mention a two fingered salute. Everything we know about the Middle Ages, apart from remains, is from eye witnesses and other writers of the period. Where does this story come from anyway? I consider it an urban myth. Prove me wrong. Evidence please, not more speculation.         

    Erik

[CraigMBeckett]

Erik,

I wiil put it to you to prove the converse, evidence please, you cannot any more that anyone can prove it to be true. We began this discussion saying legend tells us... legends are just that, stories that may contain a grain of truth or may not.

As for the use of a two fingered draw, your reasoning is flawed just because a handful of writers sat use 3 fingers does not make it so, I suggest you take a close look at paintings, drawings and illustrations from the period. For instance:

Lutterel Psalter: two fingers,  Marterdom of St Edmund by Scandinavian raiders, 13th century  illustration shown on page 31 of "Longbow" two fingers;Archers in the lower boarder of Bayeux Tapestry; "Longbow pages 32 and 33, at least 2 can be seen using 2 fingers the others seem to use one: Illustration of John Gower shooting a longbow 15th C. page 52 "Longbow", two fingers:Longbowmen shown in a sea fight Warwick Pageant, page 58 Longbow, two fingers: Illustration of longbowmen, crossbowmen and guns at a siege shown on page 90 of longbow, both right handed longbow men in the centre appear to be using two fingers: Illustration of English archers attacking a French Town, shown in the centre pages of Longbow, shows 4 archers shooting at least two of which can be clearly seen using 2 fingers:Illustration of English longbowmen against French crossbows; again from centre pages of longbow the only longbow archer who's draw hand can be seen in the process of drawing is using two fingers: on the following central pages of Longbow illustrations of longbow men at Potiiers are using 2 fingers as are the longbow men being besieged by Jeanne d'Arc are shown using 2 fingers.

Now all of those instances came from one book, I could go on and look at the other works and quote them but that would be boring.

As for Ascham.  the author of Roi Modus,  and the author of Lartdarcherie most are books written for the rich who probably did not exercise in the Bow to the same manner as the common Archer and were probably nowhere near as strong. However as I have said before and I believe you have agreed both two fingered and three fingered releases were used so the fact someone write about a certain way does not make it universal.

It is clear that the three finger draw was used and the two finger draw as well

Or are you changing your mind now?

Mediaeval writings ? I remind people who consider written material useless, that we wouldn’t even know about the battle if Agincourt wlthout the accounts of English, Burgundian and Belgian wrters of the period, none of which mention a two fingered salute. Everything we know about the Middle Ages, apart from remains, is from eye witnesses and other writers of the period.

Not sure what you are trying to say here, none of these writings talk of any taunts given by the victors to the vanquished, do you seriously believe that having slaughtered the pride of France, the people who prior to the battle flew the Oriflame, which was a declaration of no quarter, a direction from the King of France to his Hoard to kill all enemies of France, that these men who had heard the French masses jeering at them would not return the favour? Why would it have been reported by those who wrote of the victory, if it happened it would have been one thing amongst many and a thing done by the common soldier not something done by one of the Lords who's exploits were regarded as being worthy of mention.

Erick I do not say it definitely happened but that I see no reason why it didn't, it certainly fits with what one would expect from such people.

Craig.

[bow-toxo]

Erik,

I wiil put it to you to prove the converse, evidence please, you cannot any more that anyone can prove it to be true. We began this discussion saying legend tells us... legends are just that, stories that may contain a grain of truth or may not.

As for the use of a two fingered draw, your reasoning is flawed just because a handful of writers sat use 3 fingers does not make it so, I suggest you take a close look at paintings, drawings and illustrations from the period. For instance:

Lutterel Psalter: two fingers,  Marterdom of St Edmund by Scandinavian raiders, 13th century  illustration shown on page 31 of "Longbow" two fingers;Archers in the lower boarder of Bayeux Tapestry; "Longbow pages 32 and 33, at least 2 can be seen using 2 fingers the others seem to use one: Illustration of John Gower shooting a longbow 15th C. page 52 "Longbow", two fingers:Longbowmen shown in a sea fight Warwick Pageant, page 58 Longbow, two fingers: Illustration of longbowmen, crossbowmen and guns at a siege shown on page 90 of longbow, both right handed longbow men in the centre appear to be using two fingers: Illustration of English archers attacking a French Town, shown in the centre pages of Longbow, shows 4 archers shooting at least two of which can be clearly seen using 2 fingers:Illustration of English longbowmen against French crossbows; again from centre pages of longbow the only longbow archer who's draw hand can be seen in the process of drawing is using two fingers: on the following central pages of Longbow illustrations of longbow men at Potiiers are using 2 fingers as are the longbow men being besieged by Jeanne d'Arc are shown using 2 fingers.

Now all of those instances came from one book, I could go on and look at the other works and quote them but that would be boring.

As for Ascham.  the author of Roi Modus,  and the author of Lartdarcherie most are books written for the rich who probably did not exercise in the Bow to the same manner as the common Archer and were probably nowhere near as strong. However as I have said before and I believe you have agreed both two fingered and three fingered releases were used so the fact someone write about a certain way does not make it universal.

It is clear that the three finger draw was used and the two finger draw as well

Or are you changing your mind now?

Mediaeval writings ? I remind people who consider written material useless, that we wouldn’t even know about the battle if Agincourt wlthout the accounts of English, Burgundian and Belgian wrters of the period, none of which mention a two fingered salute. Everything we know about the Middle Ages, apart from remains, is from eye witnesses and other writers of the period.

Not sure what you are trying to say here, none of these writings talk of any taunts given by the victors to the vanquished, do you seriously believe that having slaughtered the pride of France, the people who prior to the battle flew the Oriflame, which was a declaration of no quarter, a direction from the King of France to his Hoard to kill all enemies of France, that these men who had heard the French masses jeering at them would not return the favour? Why would it have been reported by those who wrote of the victory, if it happened it would have been one thing amongst many and a thing done by the common soldier not something done by one of the Lords who's exploits were regarded as being worthy of mention.

Erick I do not say it definitely happened but that I see no reason why it didn't, it certainly fits with what one would expect from such people.

Craig.

         A good response. Some manuscript illustrations, not all, can be valid evidence. I disagree with your premises but at least you find evidence. I am at a disadvantage here because it is impossible to prove a negative. I don’t have your books in front of me, so a few questions. Is the John Gower picture the one with a bow of yew with green painted back? If so, that is not a longbow, but a hunting smallbow with two finger draw as I previously mentioned. If the books I mentioned were written for the rich, then the book illustrations you listed must have been painted for the rich who hadn’t learned to read, and are worthless. BTW the rich lordswere required to practice archery like everyone else and were the core of the fighting armies.
       What I seriously believe is that if there were any basis to this silly story, it would have been in the writings of the eyewitness de Wavrin, who describes the threat [told by the English king and unknown to the French] or in the writings of English chroniclers who were glad to show English superiority. If you can show NO evidence of Agincourt archers using a “two finger salute” I really think you would best spend your time and attention on something related to reality.

                                                                                                         Erik

[CraigMBeckett]

What I seriously believe is that if there were any basis to this silly story, it would have been in the writings of the eyewitness de Wavrin, who describes the threat [told by the English king and unknown to the French] or in the writings of English chroniclers who were glad to show English superiority.

Erik, Neither of us will agree with the other, you believe it never happened, I would like to think it did, as there is no evidence we will never know. As such I think I will leave this discussion on the salute now.

However.....

I really think you would best spend your time and attention on something related to reality.

Now I think you have overstepped the mark here, you cannot show it is not reality and what I do with my time is mine to decide, please do not attempt to tell me what to do, I have refrained from doing so to you.

Craig.

[bow-toxo]

What I seriously believe is that if there were any basis to this silly story, it would have been in the writings of the eyewitness de Wavrin, who describes the threat [told by the English king and unknown to the French] or in the writings of English chroniclers who were glad to show English superiority.

Erik, Neither of us will agree with the other, you believe it never happened, I would like to think it did, as there is no evidence we will never know. As such I think I will leave this discussion on the salute now.

However.....

I really think you would best spend your time and attention on something related to reality.

Now I think you have overstepped the mark here, you cannot show it is not reality and what I do with my time is mine to decide, please do not attempt to tell me what to do, I have refrained from doing so to you.

Craig.

Craig, you rightly say that how you spend your time is your decision. I carefully chose my words to say what I would prefer to see, given your interest and your ability. If you saw that as telling you what you should do, I apologise.

                                                     Erik

[CraigMBeckett]

Erik,

Thank you.

Craig.