Warbow speed shooting

[CraigMBeckett]

Before some of you throw stones take a look at your own posts.

For instance:

I believe back quivers are a Victorian invention. They're certainly not medieval.

Posted after the question of back quivers was dealt with, what has this to do with the original post? I would also suggest that this is a perfect invitation to go off discussing back quivers.

It's strange how threads on this particular forum topic often get way off track, and turn into something completely unrelated. This topic has been a perfect example... it originally started as a discussion on speed shooting, and turned into a grammar lesson. I, for one, would like to see the nit-picking and arguing stop, and keep the discussion relevant and polite.

No not a grammar lesson, grammar does not enter into it, but rather a comment on the poor use of English by an author which turned into a question of the veracity of a quote on the supposed speed required of medieval archers and how the same could be measured. Followed by responses to direct posts

I suggest you reread the posts, you have become fixated on something you did not like.

Craig.

[adb]

Good grief, Craig... give it a rest!

[mullet]

 Craig, there is only two people who seem to care. Why don't you two start another thread and discuss it there?

[JW_Halverson]

"No not a grammar lesson, grammar does not enter into it, but rather a comment on the poor use of English" 

Grammar is the proper use of a given language.  I agree with adb and mullet.  Start a grammatical thread, this one is about what is commonly known in military circles as "cyclical rate of fire". 

I don't have a dozen matched arrows to futz with, and did my best with the six I do have and a 50# osage flatbow.  Could barely get them all off in 60 seconds the first few tries, but had them down to about 45 seconds after a dozen or so rounds.  Plenty of rest between rounds while I searched the hillside for stragglers even though the double hay bale target at 15 yds!!!!  Unless they are particularly large soldiers and mighty close and slow moving they have little to fear from me.

[ChrisM]

There are half a dozen folks in our longbow club (Companions of the Longbow, Swindon, UK) shooting 100#-plus bows. All of us can achieve 10-12 aimed shots per minute from arrows chucked into the ground. One of the lads can shoot 18+ surprisingly well aimed shots from his 90#, next summer it will be 100#. This isn't guesswork, it's one of the recorded challenges we perform from time to time throughout the year.

[JW_Halverson]

ChrisM, you guys are heroes to me!  If ever I get over to your little island, I'm going to have to come see you guys shoot!

[mullet]

 Aww, Ken. let's stay with the topic. It took two pages to get back

[ChrisM]

ChrisM, you guys are heroes to me!  If ever I get over to your little island, I'm going to have to come see you guys shoot!

JW, sorry it's taken a while to get back to you. If you are ever over her visiting our "little island" you would be very welcome to shoot with our little band!
Time to fess up I think - the truth is, for most folks who attempt this, it really isn't so hard. The guy "Deadly Dave" who can ping out 18 or so in a minute nocks by feel, and he's practised but not a whole lot. For the rest of us it's just another challenge we do throughout the year.  I can only do 10 or 11 because I nock by sight and as an old git, my sight isn't brilliant. Imagine beginning this aspect of military shooting as a ten year old, rather than 30, 40 or even 50 like myself, and you can easily see how 12 well-aimed shots in a minute would have been a breeze. Then ask yourself - how long would your arrows last? This had to be a technique which they would have trained for, not to achieve 12 arrows a "minute" (well-aimed of course) - because it's easy, but to know when to use it.

Cheers

ChrisM

[JW_Halverson]

How true!  If every archer went for the "spray and pray" philosophy it might become uncomfortable when they are out of ammo and the French chevaliers are pointing their lances their way.  Guess that's why us commoner clots depend on our "betters" to order us in battle. 

[bow-toxo]

There are half a dozen folks in our longbow club (Companions of the Longbow, Swindon, UK) shooting 100#-plus bows. All of us can achieve 10-12 aimed shots per minute from arrows chucked into the ground. One of the lads can shoot 18+ surprisingly well aimed shots from his 90#, next summer it will be 100#. This isn't guesswork, it's one of the recorded challenges we perform from time to time throughout the year.

  Your group seems to be above par.  In “Secrets of the English Warbow”, Mark Stretton says that with a heavy warbow [like 150 pounds] under stressed conditions, he could manage an aimed shot every seven seconds, not more. The quote concerning the Duke of York and the dismissal of four of his 300 archers that couldn’t manage 10 arrows a minute sounds like the truth to me. That would be a shot every six seconds. While Mark Stretton seems as close to a mediaeval war archer as possible, I can imagine that some archers trained from childhood could manage one second less, but Mark’s record might be the one to aim for.
 
adb; Thanks for your input toward my correction about helical [or not] MR fletching.

[peasant1381]

There's four of us in NZ who are doing similar stuff with bows 115lbs and up. We shoot every week at a 220 yard mark. Occasionally we'll do a speed shoot. Our focus at the moment is shooting a whole sheaf in one round. I use rubber bungy cords as a training device. The other day I did 24 draws @105lbs in 75 seconds at a nice easy pace. It's not exactly the same as drawing a bow as there is no arrow to pick up and nock but the same muscle groups are being worked.
There is no big mystery to any of this. It comes down to the strength and muscular endurance of the archer.

[ChrisM]

There are half a dozen folks in our longbow club (Companions of the Longbow, Swindon, UK) shooting 100#-plus bows. All of us can achieve 10-12 aimed shots per minute from arrows chucked into the ground. One of the lads can shoot 18+ surprisingly well aimed shots from his 90#, next summer it will be 100#. This isn't guesswork, it's one of the recorded challenges we perform from time to time throughout the year.

  Your group seems to be above par.  In “Secrets of the English Warbow”, Mark Stretton says that with a heavy warbow [like 150 pounds] under stressed conditions, he could manage an aimed shot every seven seconds, not more. The quote concerning the Duke of York and the dismissal of four of his 300 archers that couldn’t manage 10 arrows a minute sounds like the truth to me. That would be a shot every six seconds. While Mark Stretton seems as close to a mediaeval war archer as possible, I can imagine that some archers trained from childhood could manage one second less, but Mark’s record might be the one to aim for.
 

We're just ordinary folks Bow-Toxo, like yourself, and 150# under stressed conditions is quite different to 100# - 120# under relaxed conditions.

There's four of us in NZ who are doing similar stuff with bows 115lbs and up. We shoot every week at a 220 yard mark. Occasionally we'll do a speed shoot. Our focus at the moment is shooting a whole sheaf in one round. I use rubber bungy cords as a training device. The other day I did 24 draws @105lbs in 75 seconds at a nice easy pace. It's not exactly the same as drawing a bow as there is no arrow to pick up and nock but the same muscle groups are being worked.
There is no big mystery to any of this. It comes down to the strength and muscular endurance of the archer.

Nice work Keith, and you've made the point well. It's nocking and aiming which takes the time and effort. Repeatedly drawing up the bow is the easy part.

[peasant1381]

One more thing to take into account Chris which I don’t think anyone has mentioned yet– adrenaline.  As you would well know the human body is capable of quite amazing feats when the situation demands it. That fact combined with the years of practice and the professionalism of the English armies of the 100 Years War suggests to me that 10 or more aimed shots loosed in rapid succession would have been quite achievable when required.
We may never know how they managed their (for want of a better expression) “fire discipline”. Once we have a group of say 50 modern archers shooting bows averaging 140lbs it would probably be then possible to carry out some useful research in that direction.