Bowyers Flote

[Loki]

I never tried to look through the site I'm afraid,payed my five pound entrance fee and walked in the doors,seven years ago  .

Dont really see the need to remove the Link.. I know they are not a PA sponsor but It's a museum,i didnt think you guys minded links like that? 

[Justin Snyder]

I never tried to look through the site I'm afraid,payed my five pound entrance fee and walked in the doors,seven years ago  .

Dont really see the need to remove the Link.. I know they are not a PA sponsor but It's a museum,i didnt think you guys minded links like that? 

A link to a museum isn't so much of a problem. Unlike you I did go look through the site looking for the flote. That is why I said it was so disorganized. There are so many shops and links to hire the museum for a wedding that you cannot find the actual artifacts. Maybe if I was willing to spend an hour looking, but my opinion is that a museum site should be about artifacts first and all the advertisements and commercial links are second. That is not an informational museum site, it is a comercial site.

[CraigMBeckett]

The original arms of the Worshipful Company of Bowyers, shown now on the shield in centre of the attached picture, obtained from

http://www.bowyers.com/arms/arms.html

show representations of floats.

The following description is from their site.

The arms of the Company were granted by Sir Thomas Holme, Clarenceux King of Arms on 10 November 1488. The main charge is the 'flote' which was a device for planing and smoothing the bow stave. The chevron has no special meaning but is simply to separate the 'flotes' in the design. It is commonly found at this time in arms granted to corporations, livery companies and others. Likewise, so far as we know the mullets are merely decorative.

Craig.


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[bow-toxo]

The original arms of the Worshipful Company of Bowyers, shown now on the shield in centre of the attached picture, obtained from

http://www.bowyers.com/arms/arms.html

show representations of floats.

The following description is from their site.

The arms of the Company were granted by Sir Thomas Holme, Clarenceux King of Arms on 10 November 1488. The main charge is the 'flote' which was a device for planing and smoothing the bow stave. The chevron has no special meaning but is simply to separate the 'flotes' in the design. It is commonly found at this time in arms granted to corporations, livery companies and others. Likewise, so far as we know the mullets are merely decorative.

Craig.

  The mullets may refer to the victories of Crecy, Poitiers and Agincourt. The bowyer's arms are the only ones in which a float appears. I have another, more detailed, drawing of a float if someone can accept it on an email. it is not a series of scraper blades. Has anyone looled at a modern float file ?

[Steve H]

Besides, what this thema does in "warbow" escapes me.

J.

I posted in the warbow section as I am into Medieval warbows. Bowyers flotes appear in the inventory lists of wills of some of the medieval bowyers of London (still tracking this information currently).  So I was interested in finding out more with the view to getting one made and trying it out.

bow-toxo I have pm'ed you I am very interested in seeing the drawing.

Thanks for all the posts so far they have made for interesting reading and food for thought.


Steve

[Rod]

Are the flute marks on the MR bows not very like the marks left by a curved scraper?
I'm minded of the "bowyers edge" of Dean Torges which is just a variant on the spokeshave type of scraper, like those used in chair making.
Lie Nielsen also do something of this sort if high-end heirloom quality hand tools are your thing.

Rod.

[Jaro]

Yes they look like something made by scraper-like tool, yet, the round belly profile can be as easy faceted with straight scraper indeed like some kind of spokeshave. I have made me variation to one in ash wood, and it is amazing tool, though unless the sole is plated with bronze or say bone it wears sown very quickly.
I still think that spokeshave is the ultimate bowyers tool and can be used on "one tool does it all" much more elegantly than rasp, altough the second is sometimes neded for very dificult wood. The images of old "bowyer flotes" as presented look to me more like single cut rasp of kind, which is very fine and common tool among musical instrument makers, rather than big honking modern version, with set of scrapers, which leaves in me impression of something unwieldly and badly controlable, or something meant for diferent sort of work (like planishing table tops).
I m oggling Lie Neilson tools for something like 5 years, so dont tempt me, old satan


Jaro

[CraigMBeckett]

Rod,

If the Arms for the Worshipful Company of Bowyers were granted in 1488, then the Flotes depicted on the arms are representations of the tools used by Bowyers of the time. If you choose to put a tool on your coat of arms one would assume that the tool was very important to you.

You can get convex, concave and flat bladed floates now and I can see no reason why they were not available in 1488. The concave and convex bladed floates would leave similar marks to those you describe.

Craig.

[Jaro]

Notice that those depicted on the coat of arms do not look at all like the modern one.

J.

[Rod]

Craig,
The image on the coat of arms does not appear to show a tool that would leave flute marks or be used for finishing.
I appears to be more like some kind of coarse rasping tool that one might use for roughing out or any other rapid removal where the finish was not a concern.

Rod.

[CraigMBeckett]

Rod, Jaro,

Other than the placement of the handle and width, how does this tool differ from or rather in what way do you see the use of this tool differing from the use of the one depicted in the coat of arms?

As I understand it the Mary Rose bows are not made from "character" staves and although I have not seen them, the reports I have read indicate that they appear to have been made to a formula.  I believe Hardy in Longbow remarked to that effect. It must be remembered that the staves used by the Medieval Bowyers of England had undergone a number of quality checks prior to their acquisition by the Bowyer and were probably the best available and if not absolutely perfect then very near to it. The checks would have been by the supplier of the stave, the merchant or his agent providing the goods for shipment to England/Wales, customs upon point of entry and the Bowyer himself. Therefore there would have been little to no need or inclination to follow dips etc, which is one of Jaro's objections.

Craig.

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[bow-toxo]

Craig,
The image on the coat of arms does not appear to show a tool that would leave flute marks or be used for finishing.
I appears to be more like some kind of coarse rasping tool that one might use for roughing out or any other rapid removal where the finish was not a concern.

Rod.

The image, like others of the same tool,  does not appear to me to be a coarse rasping tool but an enlarged version of a float file of today. Same name, same cut. An odd coincidence? I don't think so. It seems a human trait to ignore an explanation that fits and search for one thet doesn't.

[CraigMBeckett]

The image, like others of the same tool,  does not appear to me to be a coarse rasping tool but an enlarged version of a float file of today.

Bow-toxo

Can you post a picture of what you refer to as a float file? I believe you said in an earlier post you don't know how to, all you do is use the additional options which appears on the left side of the reply window, gor to attach: then browse to the picture file on your computer.

Are you referring to plane maker's float files?

Craig.

[Jaro]

Craig, handle is the extact problem. Because unless we want to rasp we work on bowstave lenghtwise and lenghtwise you can scrap. Only - the handle on tool mean to be used as scraper on long pole will be exactly 90 degrees to the one you are posting.

Actually as I wrote above the tools on the shield look more like single cut rasp or file (as bow toxo also things) rather than a set of scrapers.

J.

[bow-toxo]

The image, like others of the same tool,  does not appear to me to be a coarse rasping tool but an enlarged version of a float file of today.

Bow-toxo

Can you post a picture of what you refer to as a float file? I believe you said in an earlier post you don't know how to, all you do is use the additional options which appears on the left side of the reply window, gor to attach: then browse to the picture file on your computer.

Are you referring to plane maker's float files?

Craig.

Sorry, I don't have a picture and the small detail wouldn't show up. You can see the real thing in a hardware store or tool store where they have a good selection of files. You will be able to make the connection to the flote drawings on the bowyers' coat of arms.