Author Topic: Choosing a design to match your stave?  (Read 10742 times)

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Kirkll

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Choosing a design to match your stave?
« on: December 02, 2009, 01:59:30 pm »
I've got my first self bow project coming up here, and have been reading a bunch of posts trying to get a feel for this adventure while i sharpen up my planes and such.

I've got an Osage stave 65" in length 2" X 2" thickness at the grip, and a good 1.5" X 1.5" at either end. it's definitely cured out well, and i'm looking for suggestions for a relatively simple design for a first time self bow attempt.

any ideas and suggestions would be helpful.

i do have the first 3 volumes of TBB i need to dig out and start studying again. I've spent the last 3 years building quite a few laminated glass bows of various design. So I've got a wee bit of  experience going for me.

Thanks, Kirk

Offline Pat B

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Re: Choosing a design to match your stave?
« Reply #1 on: December 02, 2009, 02:17:21 pm »
Kirk, even though the end results are similar the methods of getting there are totally different. I'm sure you have developed an "eye" for tiller and that alone will get you a good ways down the "selfbow" road but self bows and lam bows are not the same cup of tea.
  Assuming your draw length is 28" or less you have plenty of wood to make a good hunting weight bow. For your first, go with 1 1/2" at the fades and out 6" to 8" then taper to 1/2" to 3/4" at the tips(for now). Also leave the handle area untouched until your first low brace. Leaving these areas bigger for now will allow for adjustments for string alignment plus the full sized handle area will give you a place to clamp the stave while you work on it.  After you get your limbs bending evenly and together, and your string lines up you can shape the handle and tips to suit yourself. You don't need a finished handle or tips to tiller a bow and no sense doing that work until you are sure the bow will make it.
Make the most of all that comes and the least of all that goes!    Pat Brennan  Brevard, NC

Offline Dano

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Re: Choosing a design to match your stave?
« Reply #2 on: December 02, 2009, 08:54:44 pm »
Yep, that's what I'd do. I agree with Pat. ;D
"If the women don't find you handsome, they should at least find you handy."


Nevada

Offline George Tsoukalas

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Re: Choosing a design to match your stave?
« Reply #3 on: December 02, 2009, 09:21:02 pm »
Don't forget to chase to a heartwood ring.  There are buildalongs on my site.  Jawge
http://georgeandjoni.home.comcast.net/~georgeandjoni/
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Offline PaulN/KS

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Re: Choosing a design to match your stave?
« Reply #4 on: December 02, 2009, 11:04:19 pm »
I like to match a stave to one of the bows in the Encyclopedia of Native American Bows, Arrows and Quivers. Recently finished Vol. 1 page 106... turned out pretty well but I can't get pictures taken or posted tonight.

Kirkll

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Re: Choosing a design to match your stave?
« Reply #5 on: December 03, 2009, 02:59:21 am »
thanks for heads up Pat. that's why i'm here, to get some experienced guidance. 

George, i believe i'm in pretty good shape with ring chasing on the back of this stave. It looks to me as if DCM  prepared it pretty well, and it's ready to start the process of reducing the size and getting a rough profile. reading the grain at the side or edge of the stave, it looks to have a nice consistent ring full length about 3/16ths thick on the back, and width rough cut follows the grain closely too. she's pretty darn straight through the grip and out both ways almost to the tips. one end has a nice looking natural reflex, but the other end i will have my work cut out for me. the last 6" angles off a good 1.5".  i'll be fishing for different approaches to that manipulation after i figure out what i'm going to build.

i'm looking at around 50# at 28" for my target weight. according to everything i've read, i should have no problem in the weight department with this tight grained Osage like i have here. what concerns me some is the length of stave vs draw length. i draw between 28.5 and 29" depending on my anchor point. 

My point is..... that my rough stave is only 65" in length, so even if i'm lucky enough to use it all and add tip overlays to extend the tips some, i'll be lucky to get a 64" bow out of it. it will most likely end up 63"  So what i'm looking for is a bow design i can safely draw to 29" without it stacking too bad. i'd really like to have something with a rigid grip, and pyramid style limbs that push the working limb out further if possible. but i don't know if the  properties of this Osage will hold up with shorter narrow working limbs. according to TBB's Ron Hardcastle,  i need about 68" of length to get a 29" draw using this design.

before i start carving on this thing, i'd really like to get some more options and opinions on different designs for a 62"-64" bow.

Thanks, Kirk



Offline GregB

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Re: Choosing a design to match your stave?
« Reply #6 on: December 03, 2009, 09:01:47 am »
Kirk, I'd lay the bow out with a 4" handle and no more then 1-1/2" fades. If you're a big guy with a large hand you may need to make the handle a little longer. Make sure you follow the linear grain when laying the bow out and lay it out going off the center line that is following that linear grain. That includes the last 6" of the one limb that vere's off 1-1/2". Dry heat will work wonders to straighten a limb if need be. You may can cheat off the center line a little towards the tips which are normally non-bending. Mainly try to utilize as much working limb as you can and work with what you have. You might add a little reflex after the bow is floor tillered and prior to working it to brace height. This will counter some of the string-follow that your long draw will most likely bring on.
Greg

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Offline denny

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Re: Choosing a design to match your stave?
« Reply #7 on: December 03, 2009, 10:55:17 am »
Kirk ii, Here is my two sense. Use a chalk line, string a center line ,find the center line go left and right mark 3 inches from center,measure 16 inches from center line and make a mark left then do same on the right limb.Now back to handle area,Take a compass and aquire a dia. of 2 " and make a circle on left and right marks on center dots.Now go to center dots at 16 inches and make a circle , go to the end and reset compass at 1/4 inch and do a circle , which will give you 1/2 in end tips. Now connect the circles. You will have the profile of a good flat bow. Keep in mind ,width length and thickness determines the out come. I am sure you have learned this from glass bows. The glass bow tiller is limited,However the wooden bow is more forgiving,so it will be easier to till,which is another stage,check out georges sight.You will narrow the handle after you till the bow, I use the ruff handle area in the vise while i work the bow limbs.Good luck Denny

DCM4

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Re: Choosing a design to match your stave?
« Reply #8 on: December 03, 2009, 10:55:28 am »
Kirk,

The grain doesn't follow the stave all that well.  Study the rough layout I penciled on it, you don't have much more than 1/8" leeway off of that layout, without risking violations.
In fact it gets downright wiggly in places and you'll see that layout runs right to the edge in places.  

You need to take two rings off the back, to get down to that nice fat one if I remember right, and I made it a point to think it through and remember right.

You can make 50# at 29" no problem, but you can't afford to take off that knotty part on the straighter end.  Rather, again following my layout, you run past it to one side.

Study my layout and figure out why I put it down like I did.

This project won't allow for an arbitrary design and layout, like a pyramid shape or whatever.  Save that for a nice clean whitewood stave or a board or boo backed project.  Rather follow the grain along it's wiggly path and plan for about 1 1/2 width from fades to midlimb like was already suggested.  Then, again following the grain, you'll taper out to about 1/2" at the string grooves.  but initially leave it about 1/4" generous of that until you get it floor tillered and then get the one limb pushed over enough to make the string track.

Once you get the size down to floor tiller, it's a simple easy matter to move that limb over with heat.  It will be intimidating perhaps for the first timer, but we'll give you detailed instruction... I can post pics as I'm sure can others.

I layout a 4" handle and 2" fade tapers and then work them down from there near the end of the project, once I get a short string on it.  I generally leave no more than 7" of none working wood.

These bows are 60# @ 28", 58" ntn, typical for me not bending handles and if any not much more than 1 1/2" at the fades... and neither from the caliber of wood you got dispite is knarly shape.  You got wood aplenty brother, but you are definately in the right mindset.  Take nothing for granted.




DCM4

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Re: Choosing a design to match your stave?
« Reply #9 on: December 03, 2009, 11:05:22 am »
Block planes won't do you no service buddy, especially on that one.  Occasionally you can get by with a spokeshave, but that stave is knarly enough you'll bust out splinters most likely.

A draw knife for taking the back rings, very carefully and in fact a cabinet scraper for the finishing work.  Don't take any wood off it (belly or sides) until you get down to you final back ring.  Then do the pencil layout again, following my example.

Then bandsaw for the rough reduction.  Then wood rasps.  I like a ferrier's rasp, and then a #49 or #50 Nickolson pattern makers rasps.  Finer "4 way" for the finish work.  Lots of cabinet scaper for tillering and finesse width reduction near the end.  Sand paper obviously.  I use a 6 x 38 belt sander for some rough floor tiller work and width reduction but wouldn't encourage it for a starter.

DCM4

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Re: Choosing a design to match your stave?
« Reply #10 on: December 03, 2009, 11:40:15 am »
You can move osage around a bunch with heat once you get it down to floor tiller size.

There's a lots of pics here, not well organized but it looks like the "...gg?.JPG" ones show a pretty interesting project.  Perhaps others may be helpful if you have not browsed there.  Sorry for the unrelated stuff.  Comcast makes it damn near impossible to manage pics anymore.

http://home.comcast.net/~dcm4/site/?/photos/







Offline George Tsoukalas

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Re: Choosing a design to match your stave?
« Reply #11 on: December 03, 2009, 12:23:47 pm »
Morning, DCM! I was talking about chasing to a suitable heartwood ring. He said you did it. You are talking about following the vertical grain. I'm not sure how you resolved it with, Kirk. Gotta go here. Anyway, Kirk, this, I believe, is what DCM is talking about.
http://georgeandjoni.home.comcast.net/~georgeandjoni/layout.html
Jawge
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DCM4

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Re: Choosing a design to match your stave?
« Reply #12 on: December 03, 2009, 12:41:16 pm »
It's both George.  I left him a couple of rings to chase, to give him a taste of it.  Then he's got to go back and do the layout again.  I sent it marked up for him, but he'll cut that all off when he chases down a couple.

Nice example, clear pictures.  This stave he has is more knarly, and osage heartwood which makes it harder to see the grain, but exactly the same principle of following the grain.

Grain is along the lenght, not thickness (I know your realize George, I'm talking to Kirk... who also knows).  Chasing a ring is different, and osage is so pronounced ring porous between heartwood rings I don't expect he'll have trouble with that part.

Offline artcher1

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Re: Choosing a design to match your stave?
« Reply #13 on: December 03, 2009, 12:57:11 pm »
Not much I can add here except that if you're not use to these selfbows your draw length may wind up shorter than you expect.  A bulbous handle design like David uses will allow for a longer draw length IMO. Sounds like you certainly have enough wood for the weight you're after. That 1 1/2" rectangular limb layout is fine for an elliptical tiller and shorter draw length but may provide a little hand shock for longer draw lengths. Any chance for a little side tillering here David once weight reduction starts? ART

Offline George Tsoukalas

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Re: Choosing a design to match your stave?
« Reply #14 on: December 03, 2009, 01:17:48 pm »
DCM, I wasn't sure he understood that he has tp follow the lateral grain and he has to chase to a heartwood ring. Got it, Kirk? Jawge
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If you ain't breakin' you ain't makin!