History Channel - Warriors

[outcaste]

I feel another thread coming on..............

[Kviljo]

Hehe

[Rod]

Nick,
Both my original comment and the subsequent one make it quite clear that I regarded it as a distance shooting technique.

But I think you are possibly mistaken in attributing it as the real source of greater distance.
It is more likely a symptom of a fluent action and reaction with a heavy draw weight

It would I suggest be more instructive to look at the overall tempo and rhythm of the shot and most critically to look at the departure of the arrow as seen from behind the archer.
How the arrow departs will tell you far more than looking at any amount of bodily movement.

I would go so far as to say that a really bad loose combined with a lot of punching the bow or bodily movement could quite easily cancel each other out.
It is how cleanly the arrow leaves that most of all defines a good shot and you will not distinguish this by looking at bodily motion but by observing the arrow from behind.

Looking at the body will tell you how co-ordinated the archer is, about his rhythm and tempo, whether or not he has sufficient control of the bow.
Careful observation of the string hand, wrist alignment and elbow movement will tell you about the degree of extension in the line of force, and if the loose is dynamic, static or let down, but only the character of the arrows departure as seen from behind will tell you if the loose itself is truly clean.

You may have noticed that some folks who initiate the draw with the wrist of the string hand bent somehow get to their anchor and loose with the wrist still bent and the arm not extended to the rear in line with the shaft.
These blokes are not only making the bow physically harder to draw, they are also giving up at least two inches of drawlength with the same anchor point.
I would expect best distance to be consistently gained by those who had a full extension in the line of force (showing a wrist straightened under back tension) the drawing arm in line with the shaft and a relaxing of the grip on the string under increasing back tension.

Good timing if punching the bow hand into the loose, since bad timing and length can have slightly too interesting consequences and a slick loose that does not disrupt the clean departure of the shaft by impeding the string, letting it forward or by throwing itout of line.
And a smooth fast tempo will usually produce more arrow speed thana slow tempo.

Rod.

[Yewboy]

Rod
A Rolling loose and a Slashing loose are totally different techniques, A rolling loose is where the archer will dip the bow during the draw, this will then allow him to get his whole body into the bow, taking the weight on his back, then the upward movement comes, all the time the bow is being drawn, then the punch forward, this is when the last part of the draw is done, then the loose, The arrow will leave the bow and the energy that is left in the bow will take the archer forward and the often off his feet, this is just the way it is, it's not done for effect and it works. There is no punching the bow arm forward the punch comes from the right leg (Right Handed Archer), The bow arm is perfectly stable when you are in control of the draw weight, so the arm will not move right or left and the shot can be kept in control and accurate.

The slashing loose is a loose that people who generally shoot the lighter weight bows use for distance shooting,however their are a few people who have enough arm strength to adopt this loose for much heavier bows,  this is quite a fast draw and requires very good knowledge of your draw length and arrow length, As the archer just points the bow at 45 degrees and quickly draws the bow to its full draw and at the point of release throws his/her drawing hand in a backwards motion and gets the snappy release required.
So they are totally different.
The majority of what you say has some relevence however it is only relevant with regards light weight bows, Arrow Spine, Dry fire weight have little to do with shooting a heavy weight bow, most 1/2" arrows will spine at over 160lb.
Nick is bang on when he says that this type of loose aids distance, as does a slashing loose, both will work, some people use one technique and others use the other, whatever gets the better distance for them, those that do use a rolling loose, do so as it gives them greater distances and the same goes for people who use a slashing loose, each archer who competes in distance shooting will adopt what is better for them, it's stupid to think that they have not tried both and chosen what is best for them.
Archers that use the Rolling Loose: Mark Stretton (Held the Std Arrow Record 2003-2005), Joseph Gibbs (World Record Holder Std Arrow 2009), Simon Stanley (Held the Std Arrow Record 2006-2008, Flight Record holder 2003-2008), Steve Stratton (UK Flight Champion 2006).
Archers that use the slashing loose: Jeremy Spencer (Fight Record Holder 2008-), Alistair Aston (UK Flight Champion 2007-2008).

As you can see both techniques work well and it's just a case of whatever suits the particular archer.

It is probably wise to just applaud these people for there achievments and congratulate them for put their heads on the block by going on tv, instead of trying to analyze or make light of their shooting styles when you have not been able to achieve anything similar.

Yewbow

[Marc St Louis]

I have seen a number of videos of some heavy bow archers shooting their bows, I'm not talking amateurs here but the regular guys.  Most of those videos clearly show the archer pulling the bow back to full draw and just before they let loose back off from full draw a couple inches at least.  I may not shoot heavy bows but I know that is not good for distance.  Would that be classified as a rolling loose? 

[nick1346]

Hi Rod,

It would aid clarity if you used the quote box correctly, instead of using italics which are just about impossible to decipher on my computer

I hate to tell you this but I do understand what constitutes a good loose and what constitutes a poor one, like most archers I can even tell you if someone loosed well or poorly by the sound it makes alone.

I agree almost entirely with your saying and as I stated before the rolling loose aids the loose rather than impart blistering kinetic energy to the arrow. If you watch the video of Mark you'll see how he moves before he shoots and how his upper body moves in the direction of the arrows final path. You'll also notice how the arrow gains even more draw length becuase of it.

As with the slashing loose this technique is also easy to mess up or should I rather say the converse, it is hard to master but once mastered it does work.  At some point in the future I'll hopefully be filming a multi camera angle of this sequence and the slashing loose which would be interesting and not in a negative way!

So we are basically in agreement then?

Nick

[nick1346]

I have seen a number of videos of some heavy bow archers shooting their bows, I'm not talking amateurs here but the regular guys.  Most of those videos clearly show the archer pulling the bow back to full draw and just before they let loose back off from full draw a couple inches at least.  I may not shoot heavy bows but I know that is not good for distance.  Would that be classified as a rolling loose? 

No Marc that would be a poor loose

Did you watch the video of second video of Mark I put up? You'll see in that one that his draw length actually increases, now that's called a rolling loose

[Yewboy]

I have seen a number of videos of some heavy bow archers shooting their bows, I'm not talking amateurs here but the regular guys.  Most of those videos clearly show the archer pulling the bow back to full draw and just before they let loose back off from full draw a couple inches at least.  I may not shoot heavy bows but I know that is not good for distance.  Would that be classified as a rolling loose? 

Well Marc, that may be so but I'm sure you cannot be talking about the people on the list I used as they have all established themselves with shooting big distances and have records to prove or won national competitions, maybe the people you have seen are not on top of their draw weights! Oh and no that is not a rolling loose, that is as Nick states a bad loose.

Yewboy

[Dane]

Does anyone actually know what kind of loose was used in medieval combat archery? Is there some period documetation that describes the various releases, or is it conjecture and logic and experimentation that has developed these different kinds of slashing and rolling releases?

The question is a serious one, not to cause strife or anything. Oh, did things change by the Tutor period, or was it the same as the 14th century way of bow shooting?

Dane

[Marc St Louis]

As I said these were not amateurs.  I was going to put names down but on second thought decided not to. 

Having done some flight shooting I know for a fact that a slashing loose when well done will get the distance.  Holding any wood bow at full draw regardless of draw weight will cut down distance and anyone that says otherwise does not know his wood as well as he thinks he does.

[alanesq]

I have a tendency to let the bow come down before releasing - its something I have been trying to stop doing for a while
but as a result of this my distances have been terrible

[Yewboy]

As I said these were not amateurs.  I was going to put names down but on second thought decided not to. 

Having done some flight shooting I know for a fact that a slashing loose when well done will get the distance.  Holding any wood bow at full draw regardless of draw weight will cut down distance and anyone that says otherwise does not know his wood as well as he thinks he does.

You are quite correct Marc, however both techniques work and neither require the bow to be held at full draw for any time at all, both techniques are similar in that respect.

[Rod]

More in agreement than you might expect Nick, but like any other rational being, not about to give up observation and understanding for blind and unquestioning admiration any time soon...

And you must admit that some of the "explanations" on offer only serve to confuse or cast doubt.

For example:
A "slashing loose" is just that. It is not a contrived method of pre-aiming and drawing, but it can be the fast and fluent loosing component in more than one style of draw.

Rod.

[alanesq]

Nick: maybe we could film some looses at Batsford with my high speed camera then see what info we can deduce from these?

it should be possible to tell the arrow speed and the archers speed and thus what amount of this arrow speed is due to the active loose
we could also film the same archer not using an active loose and compare them in great detail

[Kviljo]

Hmm, that would be totally awesome Alan!