Thoughts on speed and selfbows

[Kegan]

The first is about selfbow speed. There was a second round of the "200 fps challenge" on Paleolanet, and after reading most of the posts, it seems that the easiest way to get a selfbow to shoot quickly is jsut to bump the weight. Shoot 500 gr arrows from a 65# bow (with narrowed tips for efficiency) and what not. If speed is your game, why woudn't this be an acceptable course of action- seems the simplest?

I bring this up because most of us know that Natives killed game with ligher, less poweful weapons, and know the lethality of slighty lighter arrows coming form close range with accuracy, but some of use (myself especially) like to shoot moving targets, and that little boost in spped makes it a whole lot easier.

[JackCrafty]

You can achieve 200 fps if you make the arrow lighter as you make the bow heavier (in draw weight).  If you could make a 100 grain arrow strong enough to shoot from a 100# bow, I think you could exceed the 200fps easily.

The real challenge is getting an arrow of 10 grains of weight, for every 1 lb of draw weight, past the 200 fps mark.

As far as NA archery, there is  a lot of variation in draw weight vs arrow weight.  The general statement that NA's used lighter weapons (than we do today) is probably true, but that doesn't mean that they always made their weapons lighter and always shot at close range because they were following some sort of universal shooting formula.  There seems to be no universal standard....arrows were made of heavy or light materials with seemingly no concern for the power of the bow, bows were made with heavy or unbalanced limbs, different tribes shot the same animals with different equipment, etc.

As far as weight of the bow being the simplest way to increase speed, that's a good question.  I'm leaning towards draw length and limb design, personally.

For many people, speed makes shooting easier, and makes hunting more succesful.  IMO, practice and familiarity with your equipment trumps speed any day.

[Kegan]

I understadn that. I've read accounts of Plains Indians shooting their short bows and dogwood arrows and hitting white soldiers at 80 yards. So obviously there is no general rule.

And I agree completely with the comfortability.

I was jsut thinking about speed- and it seems that the easiest way to get extra weight would jsut be shooting a stronger bow and a lighter arrow. Just like shooting a heavier arrow would be more quiet and less finicky.

[Marc St Louis]

You can easily eclipse 200 fps just by dropping the weight of the arrow.  I have shot a 300 grain arrow at more than 240 fps with one of my bows.  The point is to try and shoot 200 fps with 10 GPP

[wakosama]

Just a question... because I don't know... do FG or even compounds shoot that fast?  Awesome if an ancient piece of wooden technology was so superior.

LUK

[Badger]

Kegan, the restrictions on that contest were pretty difficult. The bow had to shoot 10 grains of arrow weight per pound of draw weight, draw was 28" and string had to be natural material. Design had to be something that could have conceivably been made by a primitive culture. I think this is next to impossible. As far as I know a modern carbon fiber longbow finally exceeded the 200 fps limit. using 6 strand string of fast flight. I hit 192 using 6 strands and 188 using 10 strands with a boo backed bow. This was right up there with the top modern bows in the world. I know there are several guys around that are hitting the high 180's with backed bows. Steve

[JackCrafty]

Hmmmm...I guess the question of the "easiest" way to increase speed hasn't been answered.

Let's take increasing the bow power and making the arrow lighter.

First the arrow: it would have to be both light in weight and strong in spine.  Cane is the first thing that comes to mind as a material.  I think it can be argued that rivercane has the best strength to weight ratio.  How easy is it to find the right piece of cane and make an arrow from it?  Very easy if it's available.  If it doesn't grow nearby, then it's very difficult.  If there isn't any cane, then you could always use a light weight wood species....but is that wood going to be strong in spine?  Probably not.  Overall, it's harder to make a strong lightweight arrow than a strong heavy arrow.

Next, the bow.  If the limbs are wide and/or long, you can make a strong bow (with a long draw length) without worrying too much about breaking the wood.  If there is wood available for this type of bow (long, wide logs with straight grain), then easy...if not, then difficult.  In this case, what is easier to find?  Long wide staves, or short narrow staves?  I think the latter.  Overall, I think it's harder to make a powerful bow than a lightweight bow (of the same draw length).

So, if dropping the arrow weight and increasing the bow strength is not the easiest, then what is?  Good question.  You can get a small increase in speed simply by switching to a lighter arrow, but then the accuracy suffers if that arrow is not matched to the bow.  Most people today are not too concerned about spine anyway, so this seems the easiest....but to someone who's persnickety (like me) the notion of unmatched equipment is torture....and causes nightmares.

IMO, the easiest way to achieve greater speed is to increase your bow-making and arrow-making skills, and that includes properly matching the equipment.

[dragonman]

I  dont want to alter the thread, but to measure the efficiency of a bow, surely penetration power AND speed must be taken into consideration." Primitive " people didnt make bows  to engage in competions for speed (generally, but who knows) the point is bows where made by native types for warfare or hunting,  primarily. So to set primitive standards on a bow it should have penetration  power too,  therefore relying on very light arrows at the expense of power, is very unprimitive in my opinion.  Anyway, just some more thoughts

ps, wher do you get chronographs, and are they expensive, ive no idea how fast my bows shoot

[JackCrafty]

You can get chronographs on ebay...last time I checked they were about $75.

[Kegan]

Hmmmm...I guess the question of the "easiest" way to increase speed hasn't been answered.

Let's take increasing the bow power and making the arrow lighter.

First the arrow: it would have to be both light in weight and strong in spine.  Cane is the first thing that comes to mind as a material.  I think it can be argued that rivercane has the best strength to weight ratio.  How easy is it to find the right piece of cane and make an arrow from it?  Very easy if it's available.  If it doesn't grow nearby, then it's very difficult.  If there isn't any cane, then you could always use a light weight wood species....but is that wood going to be strong in spine?  Probably not.  Overall, it's harder to make a strong lightweight arrow than a strong heavy arrow.

Next, the bow.  If the limbs are wide and/or long, you can make a strong bow (with a long draw length) without worrying too much about breaking the wood.  If there is wood available for this type of bow (long, wide logs with straight grain), then easy...if not, then difficult.  In this case, what is easier to find?  Long wide staves, or short narrow staves?  I think the latter.  Overall, I think it's harder to make a powerful bow than a lightweight bow (of the same draw length).

So, if dropping the arrow weight and increasing the bow strength is not the easiest, then what is?  Good question.  You can get a small increase in speed simply by switching to a lighter arrow, but then the accuracy suffers if that arrow is not matched to the bow.  Most people today are not too concerned about spine anyway, so this seems the easiest....but to someone who's persnickety (like me) the notion of unmatched equipment is torture....and causes nightmares.

IMO, the easiest way to achieve greater speed is to increase your bow-making and arrow-making skills, and that includes properly matching the equipment.

I make my arrows from birch dowels. Most of these spine 80-100+ pounds, and finish at 600-650 grains (my prefered weight for hunting arrows). I also don't have alot of trouble getting tempered hickory longbows to shoot 75# or so. So for me at least, this is the easiest solution. Just a little more weight and sanding the nock end of the arrows a little more.

[hawkbow]

I am not too keen on  actual speeds and velocity concerning my bows or arrows.... but will say that all my hunting bows have to be pretty fast and require that they bury the arrow in the hay bales when practicing... as long as the bow and arrow set up beats the intended prey's reflexes at fifteen yards or so... that is fast enough for me Hawk

[Kegan]

I am not too keen on  actual speeds and velocity concerning my bows or arrows.... but will say that all my hunting bows have to be pretty fast and require that they bury the arrow in the hay bales when practicing... as long as the bow and arrow set up beats the intended prey's reflexes at fifteen yards or so... that is fast enough for me Hawk

I completely agree. But those bouncing ping-pong balls sure are quick !