nox glue?????

[JackCrafty]

Hmmmm....I thought food grade gelatin was made from tissue other than hide....hooves, bone, cartilage, membrane, sinew, etc.  I thought hides were not used in the process of making gelatin because they are worth more if sold for other purposes (leather, for example).

When I buy hide glue, I make sure it's made from hides (or skins).  Fish glue is made from fish skins, rabbit skin glue is made from, well, rabbit skin, and hide glue is made from hides (cows, pigs, goats, etc.).  The skin provides the best basis for glue, right?  I've been under the impression that "impurities" such as bone will weaken the glue.  Maybe not.



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[YewArcher]

I cant say. I can only tell you it works and have bows in plenty that shows it. It is in my opion the BEST glue for sinewing a bow.

Steve

[YewArcher]

In the TBB Tim baker rates Knox just under two ton epoxy and quite a bit higher then hide glue:

Hide Glue: 38#
Zap Gap 40#
Fish Bladder glue: 40#
Knox: 42#
2 ton epoxy: 44#

Steve

[JackCrafty]

Yeah, I saw that data by Tim Baker in TBB (a while back).  I thought it was interesting that there is only one slot for hide glue when there are different varieties and strengths of hide glue.  I can't remember if he was rating homemade stuff or the best quality available, or if he took an average of various grades.  In any case, it's good to know that knox works for backing bows.

[YewArcher]

Jack, I beleive that he explains the hide glue he used. Knox is great though.

But you know how it is in this primitive bow world. There is so much mis information and so much varity between bowyers. Some will only use hide glue and tell you all else will not work, some use ashes and boil there bows to get the sinew to hold, others use acetate on there bows, others lick them after eating spagetti and meatballs to ensure that the siezing holds, and yet others only sinew there bows with whale glue under the light of a full moon and only when its at 90% humidity....lol.......

I cant tell ya all the stuff that I have heard from bowyers. All great people who have there own way of doing things. Persoanlly I really like knox because its cheap, I can get it at Meijer at 4:00 am, it does not smell, it comes in great little packs that serve as measuring tools do you can really keep track of how much you use, it is colorless....whwich i really really like and best of all my wife does not mind me using "knox" but would kill me if i used "hide glue" in the basement.

I use it for: Sinew, Snake skins, rawhide, arrows, any tip covers (Inner cherry bark, rawhide like the west coast bows), Paint bases for primitive paints etc.....everything you would use hide glue for I substitute with Knox.

It may really come down t technique of aplication.

Steve

[JackCrafty]

...others lick them after eating spaghetti and meatballs to ensure that the sizing holds, and yet others only sinew there bows with whale glue under the light of a full moon and only when its at 90% humidity....lol.......
 

Thanks for that....I haven't heard anything other than what's posted here on PA....that's hilarious.

Good info.  I've been using hide glue and fish glue for primitive paint......I'll try the knox too.  As for the smell of hide glue, the only batch I got that was smelly was my first batch I bought from a popular "trading post" internet site.  I threw that batch out after getting some of the good stuff from a violin maker.  Now that I know what to look for, I haven't had any problems with smelly glue.

[Justin Snyder]

Hide glue is flexable enough for bows already.  Glycerin or sorbitol should work to make it more flexable. I have used glycerin just to test it but haven't used it on a bow.   Bone glue is more flexable than hide glue but is not as strong.  

I saw Tim Baker's report also.  I have read a few others by physicists and chemists who disagree with Baker. The disadvantage Baker was is at is that there is no way to know what went into his gelatin. Modern gelatin production uses 44% pig skin 28% cow hide and 27% bone with the remaining 1% as other material. I can see that different percentages would provide different strengths.  If you buy hide glue you don't really know what you are getting.  If you make glue from hides only it will be stronger.

I'm not going to get as arrogant as to say what is best. Best glue is like best bow design or best bow wood.  If you can get one and not another it is best.  I do know is that all animal glues are very strong.  Hide glue once fully dry will not creep like most PVA glues until a temperature of 425* is reached. Gelatin is convenient to get and use and if you don't know what you are really buying when you buy hide glue you are probably better off. Some will tell you that it is impossible to make water proof, but I know there are several ways to make it waterproof. I have tried 2 that work, but most don't want to hear that so I will leave that for another discussion.   Justin

[knightd]

Justin I want to hear about it..??

[Shooter_G22]

ok...   soo if knox glue is more natural than tite bond and stonger for rawhide backings... will it also work as a wood glue?   i mean could knox glue or hide glue work for backing a board bow with say a wood backing???

the reason i ask is cuase i wanted to make another bow.. a lighter wieght bow than my first one but allso a lot shorter...  but i was just thinking of going with something low poundage just to play around with mabe a rabbit bow or squirel bow...  maybe a 52" bow around 30's to 40's i got the plank cut its pecan and its the left over piece of bord that i used to make the first bow.. i have both blank and backing in pecan and already cut @52"  but they are not glued up...   was thinking of useing Titebond III...   not really concerned with these material just becuase its what was left over from the rip for the first bow but no sense in wasting it since i could still try and make something from it... right...

but would knox glue work better than the titebond for wood to wood??? if soo how would i do this sense i have never used or worked with home made glue and dont know how mix or prepare???

 

[Justin Snyder]

G2, TB works just fine. More bows are done with TB than probably most other glues combined. I don't recommend using TB for sinew though. If you want to make glue from Knox read the label on the back for mixing then apply it like glue.     Hide glue is used to glue the wood on many musical instruments like violins to glue wood to wood.  It also glues ivory on piano keys so yes it will work. I keep mine in a glass jar on the wife's candle warmer to keep it warm while working. I also prefer using it in a warm room so it stays liquid longer on the project. Justin 

[YewArcher]

I would use TB2 or TB3 for any wood to wood laminates. I would not use hide glue or knox.

Steve

[Dane]

Hide glue is flexable enough for bows already.  Glycerin or sorbitol should work to make it more flexable. I have used glycerin just to test it but haven't used it on a bow.   Bone glue is more flexable than hide glue but is not as strong.  

I saw Tim Baker's report also.  I have read a few others by physicists and chemists who disagree with Baker. The disadvantage Baker was is at is that there is no way to know what went into his gelatin. Modern gelatin production uses 44% pig skin 28% cow hide and 27% bone with the remaining 1% as other material. I can see that different percentages would provide different strengths.  If you buy hide glue you don't really know what you are getting.  If you make glue from hides only it will be stronger.

I'm not going to get as arrogant as to say what is best. Best glue is like best bow design or best bow wood.  If you can get one and not another it is best.  I do know is that all animal glues are very strong.  Hide glue once fully dry will not creep like most PVA glues until a temperature of 425* is reached. Gelatin is convenient to get and use and if you don't know what you are really buying when you buy hide glue you are probably better off. Some will tell you that it is impossible to make water proof, but I know there are several ways to make it waterproof. I have tried 2 that work, but most don't want to hear that so I will leave that for another discussion.   Justin

Justin, I too would like to hear about your techniques to make knox waterproof, if you don't mind sharing.

Dane

PS What is the basic ratio of Knox to water when initially mixing? 1 to 1?

[YewArcher]

I have been in rain and very high humidity with bows that are sinewed and finished in True-Oil. I have not had any sinew lift as of yet. Once you cover something in true-oil its pretty waterproof, same with tung oil. I hunt with my sinew bows in all weather and do not worry about it. I have not been in POURING  rain with one but woul not hunt in those conditions anyways. True-Oil or Tung oil is really water proof enough for a sinew backed bow. Its not as delicate as you would think.
Steve

[knightd]

Some of my best hunt's have been in some nasty weather.. Ive taken alot of game in the rain.. Its much easier to stalk up on hogs and such in the rain.

[Justin Snyder]

Steve, you are correct that any oil based finish will protect sinew and hide glue from water intrusion. It is a great option since hide glue is not oil emulsified, will not dissolve in oil. 


I was talking about making the glue completely water proof, not shielding it from water.  1 part bichromate of potash for every 2 parts of cake glue used makes it light sensitive. This is what photo engravers glue is. You must keep it in a dark colored glass jar.  After you have completed the project you leave it out in the light. With light exposure the glue becomes insoluble.  Exposure to formaldehyde will also make hide glue water proof. Both of these products bichromate of potash and formaldehyde are toxic, but the properties that make each work can be found naturally occurring in every NA camp or even in your deer or family camp. 

A twig of willow or dogwood placed into your jar of hide glue will keep it fresh much longer. (don't forget this since rotten hide glue smells just like rotting cow hide)  Justin