Pike hypothesis

[WhistlingBadger]

Here's an interesting article about how Clovis points might have been used as set spears instead of as projectile points.  This article seems to be mostly speculation, as with most "research" about how ancient tools were used, but it is an interesting idea.  It seems likely to me that stone points were used both ways...why not?  Ryan Gill and others have demonstrated that stone points from an atlatl can get the job done.  But if those giant critters were inclined to charge, it would just make sense to plant a few in the ground.  If they were inclined to run away along established trails, it would make sense to plant a few spears along their likely path.  What do you think?

https://news.berkeley.edu/2024/08/21/to-kill-mammoths-in-the-ice-age-people-used-planted-pikes-not-throwing-spears-researchers-say/

[Piddler]

I actually just visited the Blackwater Draw Museum in Portales NM. Didn't have as many artifacts as I would like to see but super interesting none the less. The Artifacts on display show superior workmanship. With that comment it would lead one to believe the people of the day were highly skilled at the art of survival and probably used several methods.
As per the article, I have an aboriginal spear from Australia which has a barb laced to it with sinew. The theory is that the spear would fall out eventually and the barb would keep the wound channel open.
Piddler

[GlisGlis]

In my opinion it's a weak theory
I can imagine someone digging a hidden pit trap fitted with pointed stakes but I hardly image that a single (or maybe 10) elaborated spears can be set in the exact place and with the right angle to kill something. Especially in an open environment like the one expected in the after glacial era.
The sheer fact that a mammouth impaling itself has more force than a man throwing a spear does not justify the flight of fantasy himo
If you have ever seen a feline moving could you imagine a sabretooth impaling itself?
would you stay still holding a spear resting on ground while it jumps on you? it seems the easiest way to kill yourself

Also the releasing expanding primitive hollow point sound like trash talk in my opinion

[WhistlingBadger]

In my opinion it's a weak theory
I can imagine someone digging a hidden pit trap fitted with pointed stakes but I hardly image that a single (or maybe 10) elaborated spears can be set in the exact place and with the right angle to kill something. Especially in an open environment like the one expected in the after glacial era.
The sheer fact that a mammouth impaling itself has more force than a man throwing a spear does not justify the flight of fantasy himo
If you have ever seen a feline moving could you imagine a sabretooth impaling itself?
would you stay still holding a spear resting on ground while it jumps on you? it seems the easiest way to kill yourself

Also the releasing expanding primitive hollow point sound like trash talk in my opinion

Yeah, I thought the hollow point thing was silly and sensationalistic.  It's basically a spear point that's designed to come off inside the animal, and maybe a shaft that's meant to come apart and create multiple wound channels?  I wasn't completely clear on what they were getting at with that.  I could see where both of those innovations could be useful hunting megafauna, similar to English longbow archers using barbed heads held on with wax so they would come off inside the enemy, but it's really nothing like a hollow point.  And it all seems based on speculation anyway. 

But I could see some situations where bracing the pike to stop a charge would be advantageous, similar to how boar spears were sometimes used.  If it was advantageous for Clovis people to use braced pikes, I'm sure they did.  If not, not.  They don't seem to be saying, so we'll never know for sure.  Just an interesting idea.

[GlisGlis]

The main point is that historians have to publish to live and media love sensational stories over plain facts

Yeah, I thought the hollow point thing was silly and sensationalistic.  It's basically a spear point that's designed to come off inside the animal, and maybe a shaft that's meant to come apart and create multiple wound channels?  I wasn't completely clear on what they were getting at with that.

How do you control when the point comes detached.
How much penetration do you get once the point comes loose?

But I could see some situations where bracing the pike to stop a charge would be advantageous, similar to how boar spears were sometimes used. 

that's what they said but actually I'm not sure it's true
Looking at a wild boar moving you instantly notice that the beast is fast. And I mean very fast.
It's also not that tall and viewing from the front it's quite narrow and you can almost see nothing but his head
if you put the rear of your spear into the ground your spear would have a very small angle with the terrain to be effective almost forcing you into a kneeled position and with the risk of slipping away.
Securing your spear into the ground and aiming while in such position is pretty unlikely
If you look at all the boar painting from the past they show man holding the spear in "regular" position

[WhistlingBadger]

that's what they said but actually I'm not sure it's true
Looking at a wild boar moving you instantly notice that the beast is fast. And I mean very fast.
It's also not that tall and viewing from the front it's quite narrow and you can almost see nothing but his head
if you put the rear of your spear into the ground your spear would have a very small angle with the terrain to be effective almost forcing you into a kneeled position and with the risk of slipping away.
Securing your spear into the ground and aiming while in such position is pretty unlikely
If you look at all the boar painting from the past they show man holding the spear in "regular" position

Interesting.  You're probably right.  The pictures do show normal spear position, and that makes sense.  I'm pretty impressed with the guy sticking one with a sword behind the ear, from horseback...   

[JW_Halverson]

There is a site in Texas, I believe, where an entire family group of mammoths were killed. There are signs that all of them had been partially butchered and only ONE Clovis point found in each. A large female was found at a distance with MULTIPLE Clovis points in her body and no sign of butchering. Extrapolating from modern elephant behavior, the herd matriarchs are the defenders of the family herds, she most likely continued her attacks and took multiple injuries before succumbing to her injuries. Doesn't sound like pikes planted in the ground to me.