A lesson learned about the long string and tillering

[Tradslinger]

My first bows were board bows, figured that it was the cheapest way to learn on. Also better to mess up a bow that I had under $10 in versus a stave that I had bought. As a newbee, there are so many things to consider, most of which are not even thought of. Even though I had watched several videos on each step of the build, I still failed to grasp the importance of several things. I didn't really understand what or how the floor tiller show be or really look like. The big deal to me was tillering, it was the most important part. So, as I went to use the long string for it's portion of the tillering, I did several things wrong. 1st, had too long of a string and 2nd, got in too big of a hurry  then 3rd, used the long string too much. So, I ended up with a false tiller as it didn't look or act anything like the real tillering should have. The video of Swiftbows explained the reason why I had failed so terribly. I was drawing the limbs in a manner that the bow would never be drawn. From what I could tell, this affected several things, including bow draw weight. So now I use a much shorter long string, that is even tight but not full braced or even halfway braced. So now I will get a truer reading of the limbs. Also I am taking my time and really inspecting everything more closely before I remove more wood. Speed is not my friend, at least not yet, maybe later down the road. I am about making a bow worthy of hunting with and one to be proud of.

[HH~]

When you get a few bows under yer belt a good floor tiller will eliminate most long string needs. Just pulls tips. Het it floor tilled heavy and get a full brace string on it and let it sweat feeling that string on for a good while. Watch for changes to limbs under that stress. It will tell a bunch about each limb.

Shawn

[PaSteve]

The important aspect of this is that you're realizing why things aren't turning out as planned. That means you're learning. In my eyes tillering is the hardest part of bow building. I've only made about 25 bows myself so I'm not speaking from much experience. The one thing that really helped me was what I call my approach to tiller. If I can keep both limbs in unison as I remove wood from the belly as the limbs begin to bend my tillering goes so much smoother. Much less corrections to make as my bend begins to take shape. Then I discovered Eric's tillering gizmo and that told me what my inexperienced eye wasn't seeing.
     It takes time and alot of patience. Try and always think a few steps ahead and you'll solve some issues before they even arise. Keep at it and you may surprise yourself just how much you have learned.

[Dances with squirrels]

That's the long string lesson. Now that you got that out of the way, you'll be fine. You can still use the long string, just keep those things in mind. The limbs bend a little more in the outer portion with a short string. No need to put a scale on it until after its braced. Only use the long string until the limbs bend far enough to get a low brace.

Once the limbs move a couple inches on the floor, I prefer the long string over floor tillering. With the long string on the tree, I pull it from where my string hand will be and watch both limbs work together, and watch the hook on the string. It will drift toward the stronger acting limb. This gives me a good early start on dynamic limb balance. By the time I get it braced, it's largely balanced to my holds. Like PaSteve said, getting the limbs working in unison early, and keeping them in unison as tillering proceeds means less backtracking, or playing catch up, or fear of missing target weight.

[HH~]

Getting a good floor tiller feel also usually tells you, limbs are working and if they are not in alignment "i can now get this bow on form or caul and get it straight without burning it up with a heat gun or steaming a bow that's not ready". Then you can use the long string for a quick check if you must.

Since I make bows to hunt with mainly I will decide which will be upper and lower before I start. That being said " I will keep bottom limb stiff (heavy throughout tiller)". If your not doing this maybe coming in even is a good idea?

HH~

[Dances with squirrels]

I decide top and bottom limb early too, it's one of the first things I do, during initial layout of the front profile. But I don't want the bottom limb stiffer or heavier than the top. I want their strengths balanced, relative to my shooting fulcrums. I can do it early on the tree but not with floor tillering. I don't concern myself with positive, even, or negative tiller profiles during construction, just balance.

[Pat B]

I see long string as the next step from floor tillering, making sure both limbs are bending evenly but in the case of long string, evenly and  together. When the tips have traveled 6" or so on the long string and the weight isn't too high it is time to brace. At brace the tips are 6" or less from the back  of the bow and at brace you can see where if any adjustments are needed, either for string alignment or actually having the limbs bending evenly. If the limbs are lined up and bending evenly then basically it's getting the weight down to the desired weight with just slight adjustment as you head for full draw.

[HH~]

If doing a bow for split finger only I would think that too. I shelf my hunt bows so with shelf being 1"-1.5" above center best arrow flight occurs with a positive tiller. So. . . .  if you end up even tiller then I'm going back and scraping top or catching backwards. Big no no for me when I'm close to weight. I also on occasion will shot 3 under when animal is at point blank range. Positive tiller is a must if you do that. Grabbing all that bottom limb on a selfbow is hard on it. Balance is done when I get bow in my hand and start short drawing it. Have bow in a tiller tree can never tell you how in balances in hand i have found. Timing limb movement yes. Balance not so much.

Once in a while you'll have a bow that looks even tiller at brace but at full draw it is heavy one way or other. This is where I find Tiller Tree can really tell you what wood is doing under stress. But thats not on long string.

Just my experiences.

Shawn~

[George Tsoukalas]

For years, I've used the long string. Like PatB I use it as the natural progression from floor tillering.

My long string is about 1.5 inches  longer than the stave I am tillering. Length of string is not all that crucial for me but weight reduction and good bending is.

I long string tiller out to 10 inches of string travel (not limb movement) ...string travel.

I look for good limb bending. I also look for bow weight plus 5 pounds.

This puts the stave at 10-15 pounds over final daw weight. Perfect for stringing with the short string.

I used to break a lot of bows at the first stringing because they were too heavy. This method solved that problem for me.

Whenever, I post this I usually have to be in  the mood for a war. LOL.

Just keep in mind I've built hundreds of bows while using this method.

Those of you that can go from floor to first stringing...more power to you. But I build a lot of whitewood bows too...not just osage ...and this help me gauge a whitewood stave's  readiness to be strung.

Jawge

[Pat B]

George, I've always used tip movement to judge when I can go to brace from long string because with 6" of long string tip movement tells me that I've bent the limbs enough to know I can go to low brace which is usually at about 3" to 4".
 There is more than one way to skin a cat. There is a lot of experience amongst our community, not just in the amount of bows built but the years doing it and from seeing all the successful bows built over the years there are many roads to get to proper tiller. I like to keep that road as short as I can without skipping any of the steps along the way.
 With a selfbow the only place to see proper tiller is at full draw. With the possible irregularities in a selfbow anywhere else along the path to full draw is merely an educated guess. IMO

[Dances with squirrels]

I don't want to argue about this, I really don't. I just want folks to understand that a tillering tree can be set up so that every bow will come off of it dynamically balanced in our hands at full draw, the first time we draw it. Mine is. And every bow does. I NEVER have to make a limb strength adjustment when I begin drawing a bow by hand, even when the limbs are quite different looking to begin with. I would view it that I have failed at my tillering job if that ever happened. I work towards balance in my hands at full draw from the moment I begin flexing the limbs. I'm 100% positive it's going to balance just right the first time I draw it. Dynamic balance is created by timing limb movement from our fulcrum positions on the tree.

"Once in a while you'll have a bow that looks even tiller at brace but at full draw it is heavy one way or other."

Not me. The way I do it, I never have a bow at full draw that is heavy one way or the other... not on the tillering tree, and not in my hand. The handle area never tips in the hand because one limb is too strong, because I make sure they're equal strength relative to my holds before it ever gets to full draw. To me, that balance of strength relative to my holds is every bit as important a part of the tillering process as any other part. But that's just how I do it. I understand folks have their own preferred methods, and that's cool too. What am I doin? I gotta stay out of these threads from now on 

[Allyn T]

Nah stay in dances, it's good getting multipul viewpoints and styles. As a beginner I want to try different methods people use and see what I like best and what works for me. I can't just assume one person is right with out trying them all

[George Tsoukalas]

Your method works, PatB. You've used it for years. That's great.
I try to always say that I do what works for me.
Jawge

[Pat B]

That's it, George. What works best for each.
Squirrel, how do you justify or rectify the difference between the static hold of the tiller tree and the flexible hold of the hand?

[Tradslinger]

Hey, I learned a lot from this already. Getting people to post their methods and their reasonings only help people like me who are trying to get a deeper understanding of how to do things. options are always a great thing to know and to be able to use. I will be hunting with this bow if all turns out well, I shoot split finger and am hoping for a bow around 42lbs. it already had the tips "reflexed" some and is 66" T to T. I have more confidence in my floot tillering on this bow and am ready to cut notches to do a short brace.  I have decided to do a short brace because of the tips being reflexed already. I know that I also plan to take another 1/16th" off each side of the limbs to the tips to help some with the physical weight. The last ten inches or so of the limbs are still rather thick but can be thinned as well after I check to see what the bow weight is at low brace. I am trying to be flexable in a good way as I tackle this next step. I have made a gizmo but have used it incorrectly until reading the how to use a gizmo post here. For me, all imput is welcome as things are often seen differently from what I see. People that are successful at something tend to gravitate towards what works for them. Thanks, Jerry