Author Topic: Deflex  (Read 12325 times)

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Offline tom sawyer

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Re: Deflex
« Reply #30 on: April 15, 2008, 02:32:16 pm »
"...since most of the arrow's energy will be given to it very soon after release "

Not true.  Something like half the energy imparted to an arrow, occurs in the last 2/3 of the time its on the string.  Look at a F/D curve, it is usually a straight line.  But it doesn't start at 0lb, it starts at whatever poundage your bow pulls initially.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2008, 02:51:12 pm by tom sawyer »
Lennie
Hannibal, MO

Offline Gordon

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Re: Deflex
« Reply #31 on: April 15, 2008, 02:37:06 pm »
Keean,

Calculus mathematics is required to provide a precise answer to your question. However you can get a good visual approximation by looking at the area under the F/D curve for each bow. I'm certain you would see that the bow that starts the draw with a slack string will have less stored energy than the one with a taut string for the same draw length.
Gordon

Offline Badger

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Re: Deflex
« Reply #32 on: April 15, 2008, 02:38:30 pm »
Eric, a bow is acelerated from the moment it is released to the moment it hits brace height. The total stored energy in the bow will always reflect how fast the bow will travel. A well made self bow will usually be around 70% efficient. So if a deflexed bow and a reflexed bow were both 70% efficient and the reflexed bow stored 20% more energy it would shoot considerable faster. Typicaly the difference in bows of the same draw weight will range from about 140 fps up to about 180 fps, this is a huge difference both in stored energy and efficiency. Steve

Offline Gordon

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Re: Deflex
« Reply #33 on: April 15, 2008, 02:41:25 pm »
Quote
most of the arrow's energy will be given to it very soon after release

Unless an arrow is somehow accelerating on its own power I don't see how that is possible.
Gordon

Offline Keenan

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Re: Deflex
« Reply #34 on: April 15, 2008, 03:12:48 pm »
 Ok now that I got the pot all stired up I better get to work, ;D  ,Opps     Always remember that this is for a learning senario and hypothetical thoughts. ;) Good info Guys.   Just for kicks I just shot a bow (Slack string)  Want to see the welt ;D ;D ;D

Eric Garza

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Re: Deflex
« Reply #35 on: April 15, 2008, 05:12:49 pm »
Jack, bows with limbs of different cross sections do not produce different energy.  Energy is not produced by a bow.  The energy is produced by the archer when he draws (applies force to) the bow and gives the limbs potential energy.  What limb cross-section changes is the efficiency by which the limb's potential energy is transferred to the arrow as kinetic energy.

And Tom (assuming this is your real name), I think I understand your post after reading it a few times and doing something else for awhile.  First you assert that there is a flaw in the equation I used because it doesn't account for the bow being braced.  I disagree.  I didn't make up this equation, I got it off a physics website that listed different potential energy equations.  And I think comparing two braced bows is also perfectly valid.  They're both likes springs at rest, even when braced.  The equation I gave was developed for springs, and bows behave like springs in the way they generate elastic potential energy.  Bows have resting lengths, even when braced. 

In my second post I said specifically that you could adapt the equation for an unstrung bow, but to compare bows with the same resting lengths you'd need to have both with tips in the same place (in front of or behind the handle) when the bows are unstrung.  So to compare two similar bows so that the only thing that differs is the fact that one is deflexed, you'd have to reflex the tips of the deflexed bow so that the tips are in the same place as those of a non-deflexed bow.  I thought I made this clear, but maybe not.  If you applied this equation to two unstrung bows, one deflexed (without reflexed tips) and one that is reflexed, of course they'll generate different amounts of potential energy when strung and drawn, because their resting lengths will be different.  You aren't holding everything save the presence of a deflex in the handle constant.

Tom, you say, "half of the energy imparted to an arrow occurs in the last 2/3rds of the time it's on the string".  This is true enough, but look at an F/D curve.  Assuming you use D (draw length) on the horizontal axis and the 'curve' is actually linear starting at 6 inches on the horizontal axis and heading to higher force and draw weights at a diagonal, the incremental area under each inch of the triangle is small at lower draw lengths and increases at higher draw lengths.  This means the bow is easier to draw early on (the archer needs to apply less force), and also stores less energy.  If you were to release an arrow from an underdrawn bow, it would be given a very small amount of energy relative to if it had been fully drawn.  Most of us should agree on this.

On the other hand, when you fully draw the bow, that first inch of travel that the string moves through after release imparts a huge amount of energy into the arrow, and the incremental amount of energy given to the arrow for each further inch of movement diminishes as the string inches back towards brace height.  If, for the sake of easy math, we assume that the F/D curve is linear with a positive slope, then 3/4 of the total energy stored in the limbs has already been released into the arrow by the time it passes the halfway point back to brace height.  So, Tom and Gordan, as I said, "most of the arrow's energy will be given to it very soon after release."  This doesn't break any physical laws, and the arrow doesn't have to accelerate by itself.  If you look at an F/D curve and read it from right to left to interpret how energy flows from limbs to arrow through the release process, this shouldn't be a controversial statement.

So while the arrow is being given energy from the time you first release the string to the point at which the arrow leaves the string, the incremental energy has fallen off so much as the string approaches brace height that I don't think it does much to the momentum and velocity of the arrow.  The early stages of release for the most part define the ending velocity, while that last half just fine-tunes it.

And Badger, see my above clarification about resting lengths for two bows you want to compare.

Take care folks,

-Eric

Offline tom sawyer

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Re: Deflex
« Reply #36 on: April 15, 2008, 05:37:58 pm »
I'm Lennie, not Tom.  See my tiny signature line?

I've looked at a few F/D curves in my day.  At least two.  hehe

Some points to clarify the situation.

First, on a 28" draw and a 6" brace you have a 22" power stroke.  So the "D" in the F/d curve starts at 6" and if you plot every inch you have 22 points.  Generally each one rises around 3lb/inch.  Bows don't start at 0 force, that first inch of draw generates maybe 15lb on a snappy 60lb bow.  And a bow with 3" of deflex, might start out at 10lb.  So it isn't a negligible amount of energy being stored in that first inch of draw.  And the difference is fairly significant between the two examples. 

You did say "most", so if "most" is "over half" then so be it.  You defnitely don't find 90% of the stored energy in the last 6" of draw.  I think you're underestimating the contribution of the first few inches of draw.  That is what separates good bows from mediocre ones, and yes it isn't a huge difference (nobody is saying a reflexed bow shoots twice as fast) but it is most certainly not negligible.  More importantly, its worth pursuing since it isn't that difficult to avoid getting 3" of set with practice.

Something else, if you set your bow wood 3" or more in tillering, there's a good chance your wood is fatigued to the point that it is not as springy anymore.  This means its more elastic, less rigid and you've reduced the modulus of elasticity as well as having reduced the early weight.  This wouldn't apply to a bow made from a deflexed stave of course.

Lennie
Hannibal, MO

Offline Badger

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Re: Deflex
« Reply #37 on: April 15, 2008, 05:58:03 pm »
Eric, the last 4" of the power stroke right before the bow hits home can affect the speed of the arrow by more than 10fps. And when you stop to consider the resulting fdc from a bow with high early draw weight the resulting difference can easily be more than 20 fps. Steve

Offline Gordon

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Re: Deflex
« Reply #38 on: April 15, 2008, 06:52:33 pm »
My apologies Eric - I misunderstood by what you mean by the terms "most" and "very soon". Thank you for clarifying. That said, I agree with Steve and Lennie that the potential energy stored in those first couple inches of draw are worth optimizing to the extent the bow is not overstressed or is overly difficult to build or handle.
Gordon

Offline Justin Snyder

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Re: Deflex
« Reply #39 on: April 15, 2008, 09:07:04 pm »
What Steve said.  If you weren't getting a lot of benefit from the last few inches of power stroke it wouldn't make sense to lower the brace height to get 2 more inches of bottom end power stroke. Justin
Everything happens for a reason, sometimes the reason is you made a bad decision.


SW Utah

Offline Kegan

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Re: Deflex
« Reply #40 on: April 15, 2008, 09:24:38 pm »
My hickory bow (80#, 3" of string follow) had side cast, which shows small visual cracks in the finish on the edge, and was made from wet hickory (12%). Similiar bows of red and white oak (self) stand prefectly straight though (same dimensions, 75# though)- so it's not the design. Even with the lack of storage on behalf of my hickory bow, the bow is still a favorite of mine- so I'd be happy with anyhting that shoots as well. However, I don't completely like the straighter bows, as I am so much mroe used to the hickory longbow. Assuming that the glued in delfex (I was planning on a gentle curve over the limbs, not primarily in the grip) will take some of the strain off, than it should stand at only about 1 1/2" of string follow at most. Which is something I'd be very content with. I'm not talking about a slack string, just not as taut. Personal preference sorta thing I guess.

But I'm glad I opened the door to more "bow formula" ;)

Offline Keenan

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Re: Deflex
« Reply #41 on: April 15, 2008, 10:33:12 pm »
 Hey this is good healthy debate guys and everyone grows in knowledge from it. ;D  In thowing out all the hypothetical senarios I wasn't trying to say or state any absolutes or golden rules,  just give others food for thought and it looks like some great thoughts and valid statements came out.  ;)  And no one got shot ;D ;D ;D

Offline Badger

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Re: Deflex
« Reply #42 on: April 16, 2008, 12:54:20 am »
I finished up a red oak bow today that has about 1 1/2" string follow. I think it is about as fast as any self bow I have ever made. It has what I call hard follow. The bow still has high early draw weight even though it took some set. Some bows can take 1" set and be soft others might take 2" and still stay hard. Really can't tell without feeling and shooting them just by the amount of set or deflex as long as it is within reasonable norms. Steve

Offline tom sawyer

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Re: Deflex
« Reply #43 on: April 16, 2008, 11:34:14 am »
Might be that the difference is in how much the bow sets during shooting?  Sometimes a just-unstrung profile is pronouncedly different from when it relaxs back.  Whats the density like?  Quartersawn or plain?
Lennie
Hannibal, MO

Offline Badger

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Re: Deflex
« Reply #44 on: April 16, 2008, 11:58:50 am »
Lennie, 1 /4 sawn. Interesting thing is that I checked it after a couple hours and it only settled back about 1/2". Steve