Handshock

[Marc St Louis]

What Kviljo said ! That's a why when you lose your positive tiller your arrow's trajectory drops. Here the top limb is stronger and gets home first throwing the path of the arrow downward. Not only do I set my positive tiller while shooting the bow in but I can also adjust my arrow's impact with said tiller. -ART B

No offence Art but I try to see in my mind what you describe and the way I see it if the top limbs hits first the arrow should go up not down

[DanaM]

Holy wuh eh! All this is fascinating but my method is if it shoots and can make meat its a bow

[artcher1]

Yeah, I'm probably wrong about that one Marc !-ART B

[George Tsoukalas]

Marc, let's see here.
"Perhaps we are thinking of the same thing but using different words to convey our thoughts. "

Perhaps but I don't think so.

"To me if a bow pivots, whether on your rope and pulley or by pulling by hand, it's because one limb is stronger than the other. To me this would make the bow out of tiller. Generally we make bows with 1/8" positive tiller and at that the bow stays steady in the hand when drawn. Increase the positive tiller to 1/4" or even 1/2" and then the bow will pivot. The limbs would still return in unison when shot because both limbs are tied together by the string and when pulled back. "

If the limbs pivot then one is returning home before the other. Has to be or it wouldn't pivot. Agreed- out of tiller limbs will not be properly timed.


"You can move the nocking point up by 2" and the limbs would still come back in unison, they have to because they are tied together and the hand pulls them back in accordance with their requirements."

I don't think so.
 
"The stronger limb would travel less and be under less strain than the weaker but it would also have more mass, that could increase handshock but still not necessarily so. The weaker limb would be lighter and be under more strain so will come back faster. They both will meet at brace at exactly the same time."

I say the stronger limb would be under more strain. It may not have more mass. For example it may be reflexed and the weaker one deflexed. They may have the same mass. If the bow rocks they will not meet at the same time.


"There are external forces that can affect the return, such as if one limbs is much wider than the other and becomes affected by wind resistance."

No-inconsequential.

"Tell me I'm wrong "

I would not be so presumptuous.

Jawge

[Kviljo]

George, if a bow pivots in the hand, the limbs will reach the braced position at the same time if you let the bow down slowly. The reason it pivots is because one limb travels longer. But they will still reach the braced position at the same time, as the limbs are tied together by one string, as Marc sais.
But the same limbs may not reach the braced position at the same time when you shoot the bow. One limb may be faster than the other. Agree?


Marc, it wasn't totally an assumption, because I do believe I can see it happening as I described in the slow motion shot in the UK defence academy longbow tests video. - I am of course by no means saying that the bow used is badly made, but it does look like it has some handshock.

I'm not sure how much handshock a little overbuiltness in one limb would add, but it could be tested. If it takes a large amount of excessive wood on one limb to give the bow handshock, this might not be the reason for handshock.

But I don't think a bow with unequal limb length automatically will have handshock, because the limbs can be made to return to the braced position at the same time regardless of one limb being one or two inches longer than the other. However, even if such a bow had the limbs returning to the braced position at the same time, the heavier limb would want to travel forward more than the shorter lighter limb, so it would probably gain some handshock there too. - yet another way of gaining handshock.

[Marc St Louis]

"If the limbs pivot then one is returning home before the other. Has to be or it wouldn't pivot. Agreed- out of tiller limbs will not be properly timed."

If you say so George

""You can move the nocking point up by 2" and the limbs would still come back in unison, they have to because they are tied together and the hand pulls them back in accordance with their requirements."

""I don't think so.""

I believe Tim Baker did this very test at Paleoplanet last year and according to him the bow shot well.

kviljo
I wonder how much handshock a Japanese Yumi bow has

[PatM]

 I just want to say that I know Marc and Jawge are getting old because they have this same discussion every couple of years
 Nobody has budged an inch or even come close to changing their mind.

 I will just chime in and say that bows that have terribly unequal limbs can shoot sweetly(Yumi, Hun, and Tim's 8 foot section of cane)
 A tiller tree and a hand and fingers have little in common.
Of course I've said all this before (and I remember saying it too).

[Badger]

       Something I have noticed here is that all the guys discussing this topic here are pretty well rounded bowyers. This tells me that handshock issue is more complicated than some of us think it is, Actually pretty easy for most of us to build a bow that doesnt have shock, but identifing where it comes from seems to be a bigger issue. Steve

[Justin Snyder]

This tells me that handshock issue is more complicated than some of us think it is, Actually pretty easy for most of us to build a bow that doesnt have shock, but identifing where it comes from seems to be a bigger issue. Steve

Boy I will second that.

I got some stick on lead weights in 1 oz sizes.  I am going to play with them and see what happens.  Justin

[michbowguy]

no 2 trees are alike.
no 2 staves will react the same cut from the same tree.
only the BOWYER can help a piece of wood along to become a "sweet" shooter.
for those who push their limits with designs,are pushing there limits on shootability.
one bowyer can make 2 bows from sister staves and one will be "better" in different ways than the other.
wood is not a consistant medium for comparison!!!!bottom line, wood is not a common medium for such intrusive study,as cells break down,different moistures,working enviroments...etc.

so why keep chasing tails in circles to produce the so called "super bow"?
one thing that makes good bow BETTER is CONSISTANCY in tecnique.if something works dont try to fix it.
if you "think" it could be better, make another bow its only wood...BUT AS I SAID BEFORE,AS WOOD IS A TRICKY MEDIUM AND IS NOT THE SAME WOOD EVERY TIME....YOUR BOW MAY AND PROBABLY WILL SHOOT DIFFERENTLY EVERY TIME YOU MAKE A SO CALLED "IMPROVEMENT!"

would you rather see many of your bows working and in the hands of your friends in the hunting woods and fields, or would you like to have alot of firewood glowing from your fireplace gathered from all the bows youve tried to make but broke and along with the hard work and trial and error, hard earned at that, shining light on the one superstar that made it ...hanging on the mantle?

all this time reading about hand shock and writing this post i could have debarked a stave and got it ready to shave wood!
mbg

[Badger]

Mpg, handshock is a very important issue with bows, very seldom will you see a high performance bow that has any handshock. The everyday shooters we make are the culprits. For some reason you have a problem with all my threads, you say if something is working why change it? If a bow has handshock it is not working like it is supposed to work and needs fixing, the remedy is not difficult, understanding what causes handshock can help remedy this common problem that makes so many bowyers not enjoy shooting their bows. I have made it a point to not comment on your threads unless I have something positive to say, however you can feel free to post anything you like on my threads as it should be. Steve

[michbowguy]

badger,
this is an open forum.
i think that what i say is important and i have no problems with your other threads as well.

i like the IDEA of a primitive website.
and for some reason all of the things i see latley, not only from you but others as well....has just gone off track with some of the traditions and ideals of primitive technology.

the only thing i had a problem with an earlier post with you was that it was and is hard for me to choke down the words primitive and mass calculator in the same breath.

there are not to many websites with such active public forums outthere talking about the primitive skills we have learned and are putting to use now,and try to pass along in a positive manner.

i am willing to bet that you are an intelligent man,and have put lots of thought and theory in your work and studys on bowmaking.
myself i am fairly new to the sport and bowmaking but quickly learning that newer and more "updated" ways are pushing us further and further away from REAL primitive skills.

i may make a bow with slo cast and uneven tiller and heck not even a matched arrow in my quiver....but in the 1/2 hour or less it takes me to make such a weapon, i could use the rest of my time killing something with it.

primitive archery was about REASON.not theory.
you make a bow to feed your family, not to outshoot your neighbor.
english longbowmen had standards as they pumped out bows to the masses and they knew if they fine tuned them it could be quite better.....BUT for the time bieng they knew if they stuck with the BASICS they would build a functionable weapon.


how trad. is the trad gang?
it is by far growing by leaps and bounds.
we have a growing site here that i would hate to loose to bowyers making bows with more dial indicators and calculators etc. than with drawknives and or stone .
where do we make the cut off point to primitive??

i am worried,i am defensive.
not just to you.
the more the communities keep splitting up and deversifying the less numbers we have in a whole believing in the same wants and needs , of keeping the dimly lit lights of our primitive roots glowing.

[Badger]

That was a good post MPG, I honestly did appreciate your honesty and had a feeling thats what you were feeling with this whole thing. I can't speak for anyone else here but I do know for a fact that many of us and proably the majority of us here hold in the very highest regard those that make the most primitive of weapons in the most primitive ways. These sights will attract all of us that make bows from natural materials simply because there is no single aspect of this sport that is big enough to support a smaller group that specializes in any one particular type of bow. If you saw the bows I shoot when I go shooting you would shake your head, I shoot what looks like bent sticks, I seldom even wrap a handle, I use whatever staves I can get my hands on, usually elm, maple or osage which I happen to favor these three, but I grab and whittle anything that looks like it might have a bow in it. Flight shooting is simply a hobby of mine that requires I try to build a bow that is fast. If you could stay open minded to the idea of working with mass you might see where that is comming form. Years ago groups of people would usually be working with only one or two kinds of trees and using the same style bows. They would become very intamate with the demensions needed to make a serviceable weapon and just proceed with that. here we change and experiment with different styles and different woods, we lack the generations of bow builders before us to pass down the best styles and demensions. It might take us years worth of work and thousands of dollars spent on wood just to become proficient with a few basic designs. The mass calculator is not scientific and was derived entirely from building and weighing bows and then just taking notes and making comparisons. It makes no claims to be exact either, my only claim is that building a bow by weight to match different designs is probably more accurate than trying to select randomly a demension. Myself like many other bowyers tend to become more primitive the longer we do this although we still may play around with pet projects we have going. I have been working on a stone bow now for about 5 years, still havent finished it. I think it is safe to say the we welcome all kinds of natural material bowyers to these sights and we choose from them whatever styles most attract us, Some of us hunt, some shoot target, some flight, some are more artistic, and some just like to whittle and see wood bend. As long as we are enjoying the hobby at whatever level we choose I feel it is a good thing, Thanks again for expressing yourself honestly, thats a good thing also. Steve

[Marc St Louis]

MBG
Wow do you ever have a burr up your behind. Personally I have a bit of a burr up my behind also but it's from people that seem to have this thing about "primitive". Probably this is something that comes from my native heritage and tied to the immigrants that came here thinking the indigenous people were primitive savages that did not have any rights, including the right to own the land  .

Do you think that sinew backing a bow is "basic" bow building or making horn bows "basic" bow building? Laminated bows were being built by so called "primitive" people. It takes a bowyer many years to fine tune their art down and some never do. Steve's mass calculator can help new and old bowyers make finely tuned bows quickly and easily.

Sure you can keep making your bows as simple as possible. Heck you can even just tie a string on a stick and never mind tillering, now that is really primitive. Hmm sandpaper, chainsaws, and drawknives? These are not "primitive", they'll have to go  .   

The fact is that the English made bows designed for the optimum considering the availability of the wood and the use of the tool. Their warbows were fantastic weapons that cannot be improved upon even now.

Another fact. If you adopted the attitude of live and let live then you would find yourself to be a lot less worried and a lot less defensive.

As you say. You haven't been at this very long. Give it a few years and maybe you might have a change of mind but even if you don't that's still ok.  In the spirit of my ancestors I welcome you but please don't do as the Europeans did and bite the hand that feeds you

[George Tsoukalas]

"George, if a bow pivots in the hand, the limbs will reach the braced position at the same time if you let the bow down slowly. The reason it pivots is because one limb travels longer. But they will still reach the braced position at the same time, as the limbs are tied together by one string, as Marc sais.
But the same limbs may not reach the braced position at the same time when you shoot the bow. One limb may be faster than the other. Agree?"
Nope. I can feel pivoting when I shoot it too.
Jawge