No Set Tiller/Tiller Logic

[bradsmith2010]

string follow usually indicates overstressed wood,, not always, if it is avoided ,,,it means the wood is not stressed as much,, and deisigned properly for the draw of the bow,, avoiding string follow does not over stress the bow,, and does not make it "look better"
a great shooting bow can have string follow,,
a great shootin bow can have no string follow,,
and probably better cast,, thats why bow makers strive for as little string follow as possible,,better cast with less strain on the wood,,
if the cast of your bow is not an issue relative to the draw weight,, then string follow will not be an issue,,

that being said string follow is not the same as set,,
etc etc etc etc,,
string follow has not been deemed a desirable trait for decades,,

[Danzn Bar]

Well said Brad .....
DBar

[osage outlaw]

When it comes to theories on bow performance I believe I'm going to side with the guy who has world records in flight shooting and has written part of the TBB series.

Thanks again for posting this information Steve. 

[Selfbowman]

Wooden spring let me tell ya something . Shock comes from too much mass in the outer limbs mostly! I have built a few and yes when you build for set to achieve a reflex deflex design my bows of such have shot very good. Not as fast as a no set bow though. As far as Howard Hill style bows . I have never shot one that was not full of shock. He is my hero though. Probably the best shooter ever. Howard's bows did not have a reflex deflex design. There for your comparison does not hold up.now a properly reflexed bow will not have shock if the reflexed parts of the limb work! That's old Arvin's 2 cents. Happy bow building. Arvin

[osage outlaw]

    Even small amounts of set really hurt performance and shorten the life of a bow so It is to be avoided as much as possible.

With respect, I disagree. While large amounts of set can be a detriment to performance, small amounts of set are desirable - bows with small amounts of string follow (say, less than 3 inches) don't have the kind of hand shock that is often felt with reflexed limbs, and this leads to more accurate shooting. Bows with heavy reflexes have a pre-strung zero position that is forward of the handle, and upon release, the bow limbs attempt to return to that pre-strung condition, causing the handle to jump forward in the hand, resulting in less accurate shots - bows with slight string follow do not do this. After all, this is the reason that reflex-deflex bows exist - they attempt to maintain the faster performance of reflex bows, but they then have a deflex in order to maintain a zero position that is in line with the handle so as to remove hand shock. Both Howard Hill and John Schulz were advocates of bows that maintained string follow since accuracy was much more important to them than the speed of the arrow.

I have to disagree with  you Wooden Spring.  Not every bow with reflex has hand shock or jumps in your hand.  Danznbar made this sinew backed bow with a lot of reflex.  I shot it several times and it was as smooth as could be in the hand.  If a reflexed bow is designed and built properly it will shoot as smooth as a bow with set. 

[Selfbowman]

Oh and that Badger guy is also my hero. I am going to the salt flats too try and best him. Please wish me the best luck cause I am going to need it. Arvin

[bubby]

With all due respect, who in their right mind thinks 3" of set is minimal😕

[Badger]

Oh and that Badger guy is also my hero. I am going to the salt flats too try and best him. Please wish me the best luck cause I am going to need it. Arvin

   I almost hope you do beat me. Give me a good reason to come back next year. I still haven't got a bow built for this year. Not 100% sure I am going. I have one I finished up a couple of weeks ago That came out ok but nothing special. maybe I can tweak a little more out of it. I am pretty sure that bow posted by Dansnbar just above would do quite well with the broadheads.

[Badger]

With all due respect, who in their right mind thinks 3" of set is minimal😕

  I would have started dropping draw weight long before the 3" happened.

[willie]

Thanks for the write up on the technique of no set tillering, Steve. I have found it helpful to remeasure poundage at old benchmarks, and I appreciate your input when I was asking you about the method when tillering a bow a few winters ago.


Wooden Spring,

Guess I am not one to take sides too much, but I do appreciate hearing  opinions formed from experience.

the bow limbs attempt to return to that pre-strung condition, causing the handle to jump forward in the hand

Can't help but think if the string stops the returning limbs at brace height, would there be any further momentum towards where the bow limbs were before bracing?

Of course, just how a limb vibrates, once the string slams home is another issue.

[Wooden Spring]

Wow, and the whole world turns against me because I point out that other authors have said otherwise.

Nothing that I have said in this thread has been of my own invention, I have merely paraphrased the words of others (and I have said as much), so what this boils down to is that you can believe what you want to believe based on who you read, and/or your own experience.

[Pappy]

I tend to lean more to my own experience than what I read. Good thread with a lot of thought provoking comments.  The great thing about PA is we can have differences and keep it civil. Thanks for that.
 Pappy

[Badger]

  Willie, I doubt anyone turned against you. These threads are no different that conversations that flow back and forth. We agree, disagree, whatever and then move on. Very few people agree with Howard Hill on his string follow comments but he is still an idol to many of us.

[gfugal]

Wooden spring, Howard Hill may have said that. I don't doubt it. But you have to know several things first. String follow is not the same as set. Some string follow is induced by heat treatment and is not the result of set. This is what's done in reflex deflex designs and is maybe what Howard Hill was talking about. You also need to understand that, yes bow making has evolved, but that doesn't mean for the worse. There have been many traditions that were merely dogma passed on from generation to generation. It doesn't diminish from the skill of the craftsman, they just didn't know better because that's what they were taught. I really appreciate Tim Baker who came into this art and revolutionized how we look at things. He had a very scientific approach and that's what you need in order to filter out fact from fiction from tradition. Our anecdotal experiences and subjective opinions can lie to us. They have no ground against hard data. Tim Baker even said he swore on some things that were just simply not true. I know Steve specifically has tried to continue in a similar fashion to what Tim did and he gathers that hard data. You also have to know that Steve (badger) and Marc are extremely good bowyers and may possibly be remembered in their time to what Howard Hill was in his. Maybe not in shooting, I don't honestly know how good they are compared to Hill, but certainly in bow building. That also doesn't mean their methods aren't going to be improved upon in the future, as happened with Howard Hill, but it would pay to notice what insights they have to say.

[gfugal]

Also, you mentioned something about MOR and how if you build to it you'll get set. This is true but you don't want to necessarily build to the modulus of rupture (MOR). There is also what's called a yield point or a materials elastic limit. For example, I bought some parachute cord that says it has a working load of 150 lbs, but a breaking strength of 500. What's the difference? Well, I assume it is its yield point. I assume that after it exceeds 150 lbs it will start to deform because it's past that yield point or elastic limit. By deform I mean it will stretch and not return to its original length. This is the same thing that happens with set. If it passes that yield point it too will deform and not return to its original shape. Doesn't mean it will break, just that it's past that elastic limit. Now putting two and two together I hope you understand that 1) passing something's elastic limit will make it less elastic which is bad for a bow, and 2) passing that limit also means you are closer to something's break point (MOR) which means it's under more stress not less.