Author Topic: Force draw on bow?  (Read 9876 times)

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Offline Badger

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Re: Force draw on bow?
« Reply #45 on: March 06, 2017, 03:15:38 pm »
Quote
plus you can't know how much more will be lost do to slower limb return with a light arrow.
hmm...
but if you shoot increasingly lighter arrows, you can see with a chrono, when speed gains top out?
No doubt that's right. Sorry what i was refering to was when your measuring a force curve on the way down, your going down so slow between meaurements that your going to get no information on the recovery speed or whether or not that energy will be available due to too slow recovery. This is because the rocevery speed can really only be identified in the way you described.

   There is no point where speed gains top out that I have found. The lighter you go the faster the arrow goes. Dry fire speed means exactly what it says dry fire, any load at all will slow the limbs. I can shoot arrows as light as 120 grains  and get 300 fps. Lighter arrow would even go faster.

Offline Badger

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Re: Force draw on bow?
« Reply #46 on: March 06, 2017, 04:53:12 pm »
  Virtual mass is a pain in the ass to accurately but it clearly explains why lighter arrows are less efficient than heavier arrows. Virtual mass can also give you a way to measure histerisis in a bow. It works like this, you measure your arrow speed and weigh the arrow. Next you very accurately weigh the stored energy in the bow (FDC).
The next step you can use one of the kinetic energy calculators they have on line for. Here we see how much KE the arrow had example 500 grain arrow traevling at 170 fps has 32.054 Ft# of KE, next you use the stored energy figure and plug that into your calculator. You add weight to your arrow figure on the calculator until the KE matches the stored energy your bow has at the same 170 fps. Example bow has 48 ft# SE, a 750 grain arrow carrying 48# of KE will travel at 170 fps. I subtract 500 grains from 750 grains and I have a virtual mass of the bow that is 250 grains. On a wood bow a portion of that 250 grains is histerisis that is sensitive to bow speed so it Lessens the value of this number but if you make about a 5% allowance for histerisis you would have a virtual mass of about 238 grains. This will allow you to predict arrow speeds of different weights.

  Suppose you wanted to know how fast a 300 grain arrow should travel, just add the 238 to the 300 grains and see how fast a 538 grain arrow would have to be traveling to give you 48# KE. It should be about 202 fps. Now look at the efficiency of the 500 grain arrow and the 300 grain arrow. You have 66% and 56% efficiency.

Offline Selfbowman

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Re: Force draw on bow?
« Reply #47 on: March 06, 2017, 07:53:32 pm »
Pappy warned me about you guys. ;Di am paying attention as best I can. I will bring a pile of bows to the salt flats and y'all can laugh and tell me what I need to do better. Keep up the debate though the light might come on you never know. Arvin
Well I'll say!!  Osage is king!!

Offline Badger

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Re: Force draw on bow?
« Reply #48 on: March 06, 2017, 08:39:18 pm »
  Arvin, none of that really helps you make a better bow directly. It does help when you are trying to understand your losses and get them under control. It all boils down to less set better shooter. I was never satisfied with the explanations of hysteresis in bows. I wanted to know more about it so after so many years finally came up with some tests that could identify it and show more how it actually affected performance. I would never go through that testing again because it is way too much trouble, but very satisfying to do once.

Offline gfugal

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Re: Force draw on bow?
« Reply #49 on: March 07, 2017, 01:05:19 pm »
Thanks Badger that's a helpful calculation. I know I'll be using it for sure.

I just made a Google Sheet from what you described. Here's a link to it for anybody who wants to use this without calculating it themselves.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ipLC7uDFJPRbkyJXQzJn9WsjlnU6j17GX8luwm7CJDQ/edit?usp=sharing

Or here's an Excell sheet you can download and edit yourself.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0oOIHJuFoYBazVjanc3RkVKX1E/view?usp=sharing
« Last Edit: March 07, 2017, 04:46:31 pm by gfugal »
Greg,
No risk, no gain. Expand the mold and try new things.

Offline willie

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Re: Force draw on bow?
« Reply #50 on: March 08, 2017, 12:37:52 pm »
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There is no point where speed gains top out that I have found. The lighter you go the faster the arrow goes. Dry fire speed means exactly what it says dry fire, any load at all will slow the limbs. I can shoot arrows as light as 120 grains  and get 300 fps. Lighter arrow would even go faster.

guess I stand corrected by Badgers experience on this, as I cannot find the graph that led to the contrary conclusion I posted. Perhaps I was recalling a slightly different aspect of arrow weight/ limb performance.

Maybe something about no significant gains in speed (due to arrow weight reduction), past some point, if the limbs were not designed well???