Author Topic: lower limb taking set: ambient moisture differences  (Read 6832 times)

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Offline PEARL DRUMS

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Re: lower limb taking set: ambient moisture differences
« Reply #15 on: March 10, 2016, 02:16:17 pm »
I do, Jeff. I have about 30-35 bows hanging from my floor joists in the basement. Some top up and some top down. I suppose if a guy builds his bows right on the edge of explosion this type of minute climate change would change the bow in a visible way. I make a very slightly beefy bow and they don't move unless I screwed something up. i.e. Too short or too narrow for a given species or design, or both.
Only when the last tree has died and the last river has been poisoned and the last fish has been caught will we realize we cannot eat money.

Offline Dances with squirrels

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Re: lower limb taking set: ambient moisture differences
« Reply #16 on: March 10, 2016, 03:49:05 pm »
JoachimM, to address you question, "Why would a bottom limb have to be strained differently from a top limb, especially in symmetrical bows?"

That's an easy one. In order for the limbs to share the load equally, one limb will need to be made weaker than the other because we hold a symmetrical bow at the center, but pull the string from almost 2" above that(shooting split finger). 'Simply' put, pulling the string above center means the distance from the string fulcrum to the bottom tip is longer than the string fulcrum to the top tip. This makes the portion of the string below the string hand a longer virtual lever than the upper, giving the LOWER portion of the bow a mechanical advantage. This advantage means it needs less strength to do equal work(flex) with the same load, i.e. it should be tillered to show weaker at brace height (very generally speaking of course) in order for the bow to be balanced at full draw.

Staying with symmetrical, even-tillered bows for this example... Moving the string hand above or below center on the string shifts the advantage. It's immediate and simple to feel... and obvious to see what it means/causes as a result. The slightest tug on the string tips the bow. Move the string hand up, we give the bottom limb the advantage and the top limb tips towards us.... move the string hand down below center, and the top limb is given the advantage, causing the bottom limb to tip towards us. The way to balance the bow relative to this, to cause equal amount of flexing in the limbs, is to weaken the limb with the advantage.

"I always aim for a perfectly symmetrical tiller and don't leave the lower limb stiffer."

I don't leave the bottom limb stiffer either. I balance limb strength at full draw relative to how the archer will hold and pull, then the tiller measurements at brace height are whatever they end up being... always a result, never a predetermined guide/guess.
 
You said, "Now, if you leave one limb stiffer ("not weak enough"), it means the other (necessarily weaker) limb takes more than half of its share of the stress, and is strained more. More strain, more set. So shouldn't then the weaker (upper) limb take more set?"

Yes, IF we pulled the string from center, but we DON'T. Since in reality we pull the string away from center, the answer is NO. Not necessarily. Your statement ignores the physics of levers mentioned above. In addition to that, stiffer as viewed how? At brace? What does equal(or ANY) tiller at brace mean when one limb has a mechanical advantage over the other?

The strain the limbs ultimately realize is due infinitely more to where and how we grip the bow, where and how we grip the string, and the strength of the limbs relative to one another WHILE those factors are in play at full draw, than how they look compared to each other at brace... static... yet folks insist on using the profile at brace as their unequivocal guiding light to gauge/assume relative limb strength. That can be a critical mistake, in my opinion.

That braced profile so many sink their trust in, is practically meaningless to me during construction. After the bow is finished being tillered on the tree and immediately prior to taking it out to shoot, I take the tiller measurements for the first time... just so I'll know if the tiller changes during shooting in... but it virtually never does... because, ah-ha, I tiller the limbs to see equal 'relative' strain.

By the way, since I do, my bows don't take more set in the bottom limb. If/when they take set, they do so evenly along the bow's length. I could show you dozens of examples. As a result, never once either have I had to flip a bow end for end because the tiller shifted.

It's things like this, that cause me to question the degree of relevance of m.c. differences between top and bottom limbs... in other words, I FIRST wonder how such bows were balanced relative to the shooter at full draw.
Straight wood may make a better bow, but crooked wood makes a better bowyer

Offline Dances with squirrels

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Re: lower limb taking set: ambient moisture differences
« Reply #17 on: March 10, 2016, 03:51:23 pm »
Pearl, I agree. As I said earlier, other things would have to be perfectly in place. One of those would be pushing limits.
Straight wood may make a better bow, but crooked wood makes a better bowyer

Offline willie

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Re: lower limb taking set: ambient moisture differences
« Reply #18 on: March 10, 2016, 04:50:11 pm »
DWS-

Quote
I don't leave the bottom limb stiffer either. I balance limb strength at full draw relative to how the archer will hold and pull, then the tiller measurements at brace height are whatever they end up being... always a result, never a predetermined guide/guess.

Do you balance the limb strength by making sure that the tips travel the same distance to get to brace, and then again to get to full draw?
thanks
willie
« Last Edit: March 10, 2016, 05:53:34 pm by willie »

Offline Dances with squirrels

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Re: lower limb taking set: ambient moisture differences
« Reply #19 on: March 10, 2016, 06:04:38 pm »
Willie, the simplest answer is yes, pretty much... but there are requisites and qualifiers that should either be set forth in your question, or my answer.

They don't necessarily measure equidistant from the front plane of the handle, or the same distance 'down the tree', if that's what you mean, but instead, I balance the limbs in strength so their tips travel an equal distance and resist each other with equal force, or very nearly so, relative to the archer's holds on bow and string. This ensures the nock point comes straight back relative to the shelf.

This is done either with the handle supported in the tillering tree so it doesn't move/tip, while adjusting relative limb strength so the nock point comes straight down a line drawn perpendicular to the shelf, or by allowing the handle to tip in the tree on its dynamic balance point while adjusting limb balance/strength so it doesn't... at full draw.
Straight wood may make a better bow, but crooked wood makes a better bowyer

Offline willie

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Re: lower limb taking set: ambient moisture differences
« Reply #20 on: March 10, 2016, 06:25:14 pm »
DWS

I do appreciate you taking the time to explain the finer points of your method..

just to clarify.....

 
Quote
or by allowing the handle to tip in the tree on its dynamic balance point while adjusting limb balance/strength so it doesn't... (come straight down a line drawn perpendicular to the shelf)...at  full draw.

Seems a bit confusing to me (not unusual), but if the handle is free to rock in the tiller tree, then the nock point must travel in a straight line, therefore the tips will waggle?... or  should come back evenly without a wagggle?

thanks again for your patience
willie

Offline Dances with squirrels

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Re: lower limb taking set: ambient moisture differences
« Reply #21 on: March 10, 2016, 06:40:57 pm »
Willie, in your last post, where you quoted me, and inserted your underlined statement that you assumed I meant... it was incorrect. The way I meant it to come across was...

... or by allowing the handle to tip in the tree on its dynamic balance point while adjusting limb balance/strength so it doesn't -TIP-  at full draw.

Sorry for the confusion.
Straight wood may make a better bow, but crooked wood makes a better bowyer

Offline willie

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Re: lower limb taking set: ambient moisture differences
« Reply #22 on: March 10, 2016, 07:45:11 pm »
DWS-

I appreciate the time you have taken to share your expertise. and have been looking harder, with new eyes, at the balance on some of my recent tillering work.

Offline joachimM

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Re: lower limb taking set: ambient moisture differences
« Reply #23 on: March 11, 2016, 02:42:26 am »
DWS,
Thanks for your elaborate answer. You’ve convinced me that indeed lower limbs can take more set because of higher strain due to the way we hold a bow, and I can now imagine this difference in strain is substantial. Always good to learn new things here on PA. :)
Ain't saying that moisture differences are entirely unimportant (see Badger's remark), but there's clearly much more than that to it. 

Joachim

Offline Emmet

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Re: lower limb taking set: ambient moisture differences
« Reply #24 on: March 11, 2016, 08:56:08 am »
I have a video I made that shows this.  I'm shooting 2 arrows out of my bow and to aim both I have to  rock my hand on the grip as I draw. Each limb bending separately a noticeable amount when watched in slow mo.

Offline George Tsoukalas

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Re: lower limb taking set: ambient moisture differences
« Reply #25 on: March 11, 2016, 09:12:04 am »
I try to match the tiller on both limbs.
I use a rope and pulley and watch that both limbs bend and return in unison.
I pull from the center but finish tillering with the bow in my hands.
Initially, I just draw the bow and pay attention to how she bends. Is it tippy or even?
I'll use a mirror or a window at night.
The best, is to have someone snap a digi.
I aim for the bottom limb to be slightly stiffer (1/4") at full draw but settle for even.
There are a host of reasons why the picture perfect tiller will not work for some bows.
Might be a topic for another day.
Jawge

Set Happens!
If you ain't breakin' you ain't makin!

Offline bradsmith2010

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Re: lower limb taking set: ambient moisture differences
« Reply #26 on: March 11, 2016, 03:14:39 pm »
Dances with Squirrels ,, how do you know you have never had a limb shift, have you been able to monitor every bow you made for 5 ,, 10,, 20 years,,, has anyone else with a different hold and release ,,,shot one of your bows for 1000's of arrows,, I am just curious, ,, I have never heard anyone state that,,, have any of your bows been exposed to extreme moisture conditions,, such as hunting in the rain for a week,, or two,,or have they been shot in controlled environment,, I agree with your basic approach,,,, just curious as to how you have come to that conclusion,,  :)

Offline PlanB

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Re: lower limb taking set: ambient moisture differences
« Reply #27 on: March 11, 2016, 04:48:57 pm »
Can you do it by seeing where the arrow hits, up or down at say 20 yards with your own standard arrow, and adjust the tiller of the limbs to shift it to where you like it at that range and that bow weight?
I love it when a plan B comes together....

Offline Dances with squirrels

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Re: lower limb taking set: ambient moisture differences
« Reply #28 on: March 11, 2016, 06:35:35 pm »
Brad, I can only speak for the bow's I can keep track of. But I have never had someone contact me and say the tiller shifted on their bow. I don't often make a bow for someone else, but when I do, I get as much info as possible regarding their shooting idioms, replicate them on the tillering tree as closely as possible, and balance the strength of the limbs relative to them. That said, I didn't mean that NONE of mine ever have, but that those since I have began balancing dynamically haven't. That has encompassed most of my bow making, btw. I understand that may have sounded like a bold statement, but it's true near as I can tell. Maybe I've just been lucky. I'm about to kick off some critical testing to try to better understand and explain the intricacies and will put findings out there as they become available.
Straight wood may make a better bow, but crooked wood makes a better bowyer

mikekeswick

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Re: lower limb taking set: ambient moisture differences
« Reply #29 on: March 12, 2016, 02:43:49 am »
We would appear to be comparing apples and oranges.....
Of course we need to make a bow correctly balanced to accommodate how we pull them.....pulleys, various tillering methods etc are all fine and dandy BUT if you take that perfectly tillered bow and alter the mc levels one limb relative to the other you don't have a perfectly tillered bow anymore now do you?!?
JoachimM is dead right about the change in mc levels. If anybody thinks that a difference of 2% m.c. in a bows limbs doesn't make a difference then well......they are wrong and that's just a plain scientific fact. Easily substantiated by anybody who cares to do a little testing. Common sense can be used as well!
The fact is that that we need to look at ALL factors involved when making bows. The more experience we get the more different factors we should notice. If however some people think they have everything figured out then good luck to them. The truly wise man knows how little he knows ;)
A bow should always be laid flat if at all possible. How do you sleep? Standing up?