Plains Indian arrow weight

[killir duck]

Hey guys,  I've been trying to figure out this question for a couple weeks now and haven't found a good answer yet. How much did plains Indian arrows weigh? I've been building some exact replicas of Sioux arrows that the local museum has and they have all come in at 355-368 grains (with a 70 gn point, which is about what the several original stone points from the area that I have weighed weighed) for the red osier, 390-415 for the dogbane and 413-421 for chokecherry. These weights seem somewhat light, figuring 10 grains per pound of bow weight, and I have read that most plains bows were around 45#, then the chokecherry is pretty close. Though where the 45# figure comes from I don't know, I have build several sinew backed chokecherry and ash plains style bows of the same or smaller size then the real ones and have had no trouble reaching weights of up to 70#. 45# is easier to handle horseback then 70#, I have shot off one of my horses quite a bit and going at a lope 70 is a bit tough but 60 wasn't too bad, with the amount of practice natives would have i see no reason why Indians couldn't  have been shooting 70#+. So back to the arrow weight question, maybe first we need to know how much penetration was required? There's a big difference between an antelope and a buffalo, on an antelope a 45# bow and a 400 grain arrow is fine, but in my experience that's not gonna cut it with bigger game like elk or buffalo.

Anyways thanks for reading my rambling, hopefully you guys can shed some light on the subject.

Have a good one, Duck

[Pat B]

Ten gpp is a modern value that probably wasn't a consideration for the NA.
 I've made red osier, viburnum and sourwood shoot arrows that weighed between 500gr and 700gr, complete with stone heads or trade points I used pitch glue and sinew for the points and sinew for the fletching.
 Are you using mature shoots of just first year growth?

[DC]

If you made exact copies I would suspect that the weights you got are about right. I wouldn't think they worried about 10GPP or such. Possibly if they noticed that their arrows weren't penetrating well they might equate that with weight but I think they would be more impressed with distance(read light)

[killir duck]

What I'm thinking is 10 grains per pound of bow weight is more less the optimal weight for the best combination of speed and penetration right? I doubt N.A.s used any tools that were anything less then optimum for the job considering available materials and tools.

[loon]

You can shoot 7-8gpp with korean horn bows. I bet the short juniper native american bows are pretty fast... and the short plains sinew backed gull wing bows should be more than fast enough for 10gpp without handshock? But may get more kinetic energy with more weight

[Pat B]

Primitive people had a totally different mindset than we do today. There was no PETA or other animal rights organizations, no state game laws, etc. They used their bows and arrows for food or protection. Their tracking skills were honed and hunger or fear drove them.
 Today we have the game laws, we have animal rights folks to deal with and we have our own ethics to deal with. Our bows and arrows are used for fun whether it be for hunting or target shooting

[killir duck]

That's an angle I hadn't thought about Pat, I think maybe you nailed it.

[JackCrafty]

Arrow wieghts  varied widely, even in the same batch.  There are some sources that sbow the weights  for arrows but the unit is usually in grams so the data isnt often copied into the pool of knowledge available to the general public.

[tipi stuff]

I am in agreement with Jackcrafty and Pat. Those guys shot lots of arrows, but they didn't worry about how many grains they were shooting. Mixed batches were probably the norm.   Curtis

[Urufu_Shinjiro]

You shoot that often with that much on the line, I guarantee any decent N.A. archer knew exactly how to adjust their elevation just by feeling the arrow they pulled out of the quiver.

[sumpitan]

O.T. Mason, who personally studied a vast number of Native American archery items had this to say in his North American Bows, Arrows and Quivers (1893): "”The arrows of one quiver agree, absolutely.”

Others who have studied a large number of Plains arrows at the Smithsonian etc. report that the arrow shafts are strikingly uniform in diameter, both within a shaft and across a large number of them. Arrow shafts were sized to particular, proven sizes, and when made from particular, proven raw materials, ended up with similar characteristics. Among many NA peoples, arrows were made by dedicated specialists, precisely because making good arrows was so important, and so difficult.

Yes, they had a different mindset and priorities. But even with no PETA in sight, you need to kill the game animals efficiently and predictably to feed your family. An arrow that flies erratically, whether due to having a wrong spine or other reasons, does not penetrate nearly as well, or hit nearly as precisely, as a good arrow does. You don't need to shoot the biggest land animal in North America like the Plains peoples did, to learn this real quick.

Not all museum quivers contain matched arrows. Absent detailed collecting histories, one can always suspect many are not original in composition but rather indiscriminately put together. Also true that different situations called for different arrows. A long-range fighting arrow was thinner and lighter, and with a smaller head and fletching than a buffalo arrow, for instance.

Many of the big game iron arrowheads from the Plains were seriously heavy. The various repros I have weigh from 190 to 250 grains a piece. Coupled with a short, thin hardwood shoot shaft, these arrows end up weighing around 500 grains or more, with a massive FOC %. Stone arrowheads are much lighter, though, better fitted with longer, heavier shafts to make up for the difference. Even with the 48 - 50-inch selfbows I make and shoot, under 10  grains per pound simply lacks the oomph.

Tuukka

[Pat B]

Thanks for your insight, sumpitan.

[riverrat]

the ones i seen in books look to be all around the same size. as if the person making them made the same sized arrow for the entire group maybe? { bows arrows and quivers of the American frontier}if so they would be close in weight im thinking. anyways "if" you wanted to make yours the same weight and use a primitive tool {non modern scale} to get them close i have one i built . ill post a pic soon as i dig it out{ find it}. it works like my spine tester works.you take a good shooting arrow your happy with as far as penetration goes, after youve spined out the shaft to match other shafts you copied from your good arrow you take said shafts tie one on one side, tie one on another side, then hold in middle. if it tilts one way or the other the weight is off. you can adjust if its too heavy but not too light.if its too heavy you can reduce length a very little { not to mess up spine} or you can reduce diam. a little but not at center of shaft{ again trying to keep spine} you can weight your points with same tool. but it all hinges on have 1 great arrow to start with.Tony

[JackCrafty]

No matter how painful it might be to accept the idea of random arrow weights, that's the way it was.  Arrow makers were much more concerned with flexibility and the ability of the arrow to fly straight out of a particular bow.  That's what the data suggests, not me.

Don't worry, it was hard for me to accept this also.

[loon]

Probably doesn't matter that much at shorter ranges if the difference isn't huge... ...