Author Topic: Science  (Read 19192 times)

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Offline willie

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Re: Science
« Reply #45 on: January 19, 2016, 06:10:04 pm »
Joachim-
thanks for your observations about slower growth with diffuse porous woods. Of course density is what counts, and I have also found an understory tree is desirable for bowmaking, but I have always wondered if slow growing was a just another symptom of a small crown caused by light deprivation? And small crowns need less water vessels, hence denser wood?

If light deprivation produces denser wood, what about feed and water?
Do drier conditions affect density?
Do poorer soils affect density?

I am guessing that drier environments might need more or larger transport vessels to maximize water transport when water is available? And trees in poorer soil need to move more nutrient poor water requiring more or larger transport vessels? I could well be all wrong in my thinking, and would welcome a more scientific viewpoint.

I have found certain trees that are stunted by wind to have very tough wood, but are so twisted and gnarly that one can not get a stave out of them. I have been looking to find similar growth in less windy locations. Are other factors involved in producing dense wood besides empty vessel ratios?

willie
« Last Edit: January 19, 2016, 06:24:42 pm by willie »

Offline E. Jensen

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Re: Science
« Reply #46 on: January 19, 2016, 07:02:52 pm »
For an understory tree I would imagine juvenile vs mature wood would have more to do with things.

Offline joachimM

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Re: Science
« Reply #47 on: January 19, 2016, 07:03:36 pm »
Willie, yes what I wrote was close to the obvious and more likely common knowledge ... Mostly, I tried to convey that I'm not convinced there are easy rules of thumb, and that density is the only really reliable proxy left.
Sorry I can't help you with the remaining questions, no experience on those subjects. Only a biologist's logic. So here's a try.

Nutrient poverty will lead to slower growth, but it doesn't necessitate larger or more transport vessels: the roots don't suck up water randomly like a straw and filter out later the required nutrients. Most of the transport of minerals and nutrients happens selectively through specific ion channels along the cell membranes of the hair roots, so the plant concentrates the nutrients by itself at the desired concentration.
likewise, drier environments will require a lower crown to root ratio: more roots are needed to find and suck up water. But I don't think the plant needs more or larger vessels to transport the water in the stem and branches. The amount of crown that can be produced is then a product of the amount of water the tree can gather, as a larger crown (~larger leaf surface) loses more water through evaporation.

Now that I think of it, it could even be the opposite of what you suggest: a fast growing tree with plenty supplies of light, water and nutrients needs lots and large vessels to transport all that water to a crown that is large (because fast growing) compared to the diameter of the stem. so its density must be low.  But since the crown is large, the girth can also increase rapidly. But at the expense of having large vessels, so low density.
I'm freewheeling here, so stop me if you think it doesn't make sense.

Ring-porous wood is still a bit different. there the amount of early ring growth seems (to me at least) determined by the crown size and the concomitant water uptake required for bud burst in spring. For a same crown size, A tree strongly limited by nutrients and water and not light will require the same amount of early growth for this bud burst as a tree having access to the same amount of light but a surplus of nutrients and water. The former tree needs all the water/ nutrients it can get just for the maintenance if its machinery (the leaves, roots etc) and will have little summer growth (late wood), hence narrow growth rings. The density of the summer growth may be good, but the porous spring growth (early wood) may be disadvantageous. The well-watered and well-fed tree with plenty of light will have much wider growth rings with plenty of late wood. The summer wood may be a bit less dense than that of its poor-soil neighbor, but, the overall density may be higher because it has less early wood. 

Like I said, just freewheeling

Offline E. Jensen

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Re: Science
« Reply #48 on: January 20, 2016, 09:53:57 am »
Generally density is the best indicator of wood quality, however I just read yesterday that density and MFA combined can predict 95% of wood quality, but MFA alone predicts ~85%.  The thing is density is easy to determine, MFA not so much.

Offline Badger

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Re: Science
« Reply #49 on: January 20, 2016, 10:36:51 am »
Generally density is the best indicator of wood quality, however I just read yesterday that density and MFA combined can predict 95% of wood quality, but MFA alone predicts ~85%.  The thing is density is easy to determine, MFA not so much.

  What is MFA?

Offline E. Jensen

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Re: Science
« Reply #50 on: January 20, 2016, 12:44:20 pm »
Sorry,  micro fibril angle

Offline Badger

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Re: Science
« Reply #51 on: January 20, 2016, 01:39:08 pm »
Sorry,  micro fibril angle

  Quite a few of the very dense exotic woods we have tried for bows are horrible because of tendency to chrysal. Can the MFA identify woods that are prone to chrysal??

Offline willie

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Re: Science
« Reply #52 on: January 20, 2016, 02:49:22 pm »
E Jensen

Have you come across any information about juvenile wood, or steep MFA in hardwoods?
If determining MFA is beyond the ability of the average stave hunter, then perhaps there are growing conditions that could be identified that would increase the likelihood of finding juvenile wood?

I have always associated juvenile wood with second growth conifers from clear cuts, but that was with construction grade doug fir.


joachim- thanks for the freewheeling thoughts

Willie


Offline E. Jensen

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Re: Science
« Reply #53 on: January 20, 2016, 04:25:00 pm »
Knots.   Juvenile wood is also called crown wood because more or less it's formed in the crown.   Something with hormones. Should be about the same between softwoods and hardwoods.   It is associated with second growth because old growth trees had their crowns recede long ago,  forming lots of clear mature wood.

Offline willie

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Re: Science
« Reply #54 on: January 21, 2016, 03:02:07 pm »
E.Jensen

Thanks, that makes good sense about the knots.

Earlier you stated "juvenile wood..... makes for a really weak board." I presume that you are referring to the MOE or stiffness. Have you come across any info that might indicated whether a high MFA increases flexibility by improving the tension qualities, any more or less, than improving the compression qualities?

Is there a way you might be able to share some of your reading sources? I came across a paper years ago about MFA, but its lost now.

thanks
willie

Offline E. Jensen

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Re: Science
« Reply #55 on: January 21, 2016, 07:17:36 pm »
Not specifically.  I don't think it would be good in tension but that is just my guess.  I'm starting to think of the way the cellulose chains are arranged as a spring (a high angle wrapped around).  Springs compress well and bounce back.  Idk about tension though.  I'll round up that paper about MFA

Offline Jim Davis

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Re: Science
« Reply #56 on: January 21, 2016, 08:17:23 pm »
E. Jensen, a paper or two I have seen assumed that the amount of compression equaled the amount of extension in bending. I wonder if that is ONLY an assumption or if there is experimental evidence to  support the idea? I'm sure it could be measured and wonder if it would be the same with all woods. Most of us think hickory, for instance is stronger in tension than lots of other woods.

Jim Davis

Kentucky--formerly Maine

Offline Badger

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Re: Science
« Reply #57 on: January 21, 2016, 09:35:51 pm »
   Jensen, for the most part with bows and arrows bows tend to be a work in work out type spring minus hysteresis losses. I did a little study on hysteresis last year and came to the conclusion that it is much lower in wood bows than previously reported until the wood has been overdrawn into the plastic range at which point it starts going up dramatically depending on how badly the wood has been overstressed. 

Offline PlanB

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Re: Science
« Reply #58 on: January 23, 2016, 03:07:35 pm »
What happens to the internal structure of (say) a northern hardwood if it freezes while green? Let's say it was a summer cut log.

If it does make a difference, at what lower moisture level would it be undamaged by freezing?

What's the moisture content if cut while standing in winter?

I love it when a plan B comes together....

Offline willie

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Re: Science
« Reply #59 on: January 23, 2016, 05:07:14 pm »
heres an easy reading page about live trees and cold......

 http://msue.anr.msu.edu/news/how_do_trees_survive_in_the_winter

when it come to already cut trees, about all's I know is that if you wait until it is sub-zero to split green birch firewood rounds, it will just about fly apart with minimal effort