Condors and lead

[Zuma]

Hey you all thanks for your participation.
I'm done here. If you have any problems
with this PM me.
Oh I am a card carring member
PM me if you want me to sponser you
by by Zuma

[willie]

Jojo-
I was responding to iowabows implication that I am attacking someone in this thread.
As for the invitation to JW, that was yesterdays invite.

over and out
willie

[iowabow]

JW
when you speak highly of the peer review process, aren't you implying that transparency is the best way to prevent bias?

I presume that the non-profit you represent obtains work funded by the taxpayer? Would it not be prudent to disclose your possible conflict of interest when presenting your views and citing findings? There have been questions about the effectiveness of the peer review process in other well funded areas of research that I shall leave unnamed in this thread, perhaps for these very reasons.

I understand that you identify with and are proud of your affiliation with sportsmen, and I would even go so far as to say that you and I would enjoy a day in the field as fellow hunters and sportsmen, even if we have never met in person, but If push comes to shove with a government contract administrator that supports anti hunting measures, would you sacrifice your non-profit for the good of the sportsman?

Jw does not receive a penny of tax payer dollars. He is paid with thank you cards from children. His position would not be influenced by money but now withholding thank you cards that is another question. Therefore implying influence not grounded less we account for those children writing letters of gratitude. 

[mullet]

Glad to see everybody playing nicely, and maybe this is getting off topic, but; why is it just effecting this scavenger and not the common Buzzard and Turkey Buzzard? You can't gut an animal without it being cleaned to the last scrap here. And they eat the asphalt shingles on houses, cushions on your lawn furniture and the rubber around the wind shield and your car wipers and keep on ticking? There is more of them shoulder to shoulder with the proud Eagle eating toxic crap at the Landfills then Tourist on the beach. 

 Maybe we should be spending money protecting a more, hardy bird.

[JoJoDapyro]

They do.


http://www.nps.gov/pinn/learn/nature/upload/0108%20Pain.pdf

http://www.nwhc.usgs.gov/publications/fact_sheets/pdfs/lead_poisoning_wild_birds_2009.pdf

http://www.nwhc.usgs.gov/disease_information/lead_poisoning/

This last one is a list of 46 or so pages of studies of lead poisoning of birds. Some links are included in the PDF.
http://files.dnr.state.mn.us/publications/wildlife/research2007/13a_leadshot_lit_review.pdf

[mullet]

Going over that, I guess the Buzzard isn't cool enough for a study. Sure wish Coyotes would start getting stupid from all of the lead I'm sure they ingest.

[JoJoDapyro]

Going over that, I guess the Buzzard isn't cool enough for a study. Sure wish Coyotes would start getting stupid from all of the lead I'm sure they ingest.

The trick is getting the lead to stick in them.  I'm sure you know how to do that! I'm sure the studies are easier to get funded if the animal is losing numbers quickly, or cute and cuddly.

[mullet]

Cute and cuddly is what I was thinking.

[Josh B]

I've been following along and trying to avoid jumping into this for several reasons.  First and foremost being that I really don't care if condors go the way of the pteradactyl.(Hey...I'm just being honest here).  That being said, I do care about most other birds affected by this.  It is total conceivable in my mind that fragments of lead in the crop would be pulverized into particles that would be absorbed into the blood stream and as such I use bismuth/tin alloy shot and Barnes X bullets in almost all my hunting ammunition.  JW is correct in both the performance of the Barnes bullets and that there is absolutely no more wear on your barrel than jacketed bullets would cause. But I have to admit that i am more than a little jaded towards the governmental funded science.  Especially when it results in legislation that restricts the second amendment.  I know...that's a whole other can of worms.  I'm not trying to hi-jack this thread in that direction.  Just explaining my thought process. 
  One of my many hobbies is amateur prospecting.  I have panned tons and tons of materials over the years all over the country.  To date I have found one .58 cal. miniball and 2 .22 bullets in my pan.  That's it for refined lead.  What I have found quite often is raw galena ore in small pieces.  Yes you can tell the difference between galena ore and refined lead.  Is it possible that these birds are getting some of there lead poisoning from naturally occurring galena placer deposits?  And if so how much of it is from this source and not shot?  Just food for thought.  I'm not a scientist nor am I well read on the subject.  Perhaps that has already been ruled out in studies.  I don't know.  Galena deposits are fairly common in the condors range as well as along the migratory path of many waterfowl and birds of prey.  Like I said, just food for thought.  Josh

[mullet]

That's the way my thought process was leaning, too, Josh. I've prospected and drilled in that area and there are mines everywhere with Tailing piles and waste sites. And, I'm with you on the Condor.

[caveman2533]

As for lead in your system, have you been tested? 

Yes I have been tested for lead. Every six months for nearly 20 years.  I work in a brass and bronze foundry where lead is a major concern.

[Urufu_Shinjiro]

Gun Doc, to answer your naturally occurring galena question, yes, that has been addressed in the studies, even in trace amounts in the blood you can identify the isotope of the lead and from what I can tell there are two naturally occurring and two that are from processed/manufactured lead, one of which is used in bullets, it's the type used in bullets being found in the birds, none of the naturally occurring isotopes.

[Josh B]

Lead Is a base element noted for its stability that is refined primarily from galena ore.  Refined...that means the pure lead is already in the ore.  It just has to be extracted from the ore to remove the other elements and impurities.  That does not change the isotopes of the lead.  It's the same isotopes in the ore as it is in the purified metal.  Even in hard cast bullet alloys that have a certain amount of antimony added to achieve the desired hardness, the isotopes of the base elements in that alloy remain distinct and unaltered.  Josh

[Urufu_Shinjiro]

Sorry, I misread from data earlier presented in this thread, here's the proper explanation:

"The bloodwork regularly shows two of the four isotopes of lead.  One isotope is the one found in leaded gasoline, and it is never found in the bloodwork.  Second is a background isotope found naturally occurring in soils and, typically, is waters where glacial deposits left cinnabarite (a lead bearing ore), and this occurs in low levels.  But the third and fourth isotopes are found in galena ores that are mined for lead smelting and is used in all kinds of industrial uses, including bullets. THAT is the one that shows up in high levels in sick birds.

Now, to narrow down possible sourcing of that lead in the bloodstream, they also began testing for copper and zinc.  Why those two?  Gilding metal, 95% copper, 5% zinc.  That's the common jacket for dang near every modern bullet manufactured.  Copper and zinc also shows up in the blood of lead poisoned raptors at the exact ratio of 95:5.  This is what is known in science as a one to one correlation. "

[Josh B]

Yeah...I read JW's post and I do not and can not refute his information.  This being his passion, he would certainly be better read on the subject than I.  At face value the copper and zinc traces and especially the ratio would seem conclusive.  However, both copper and zinc are included in the group of metals included in galena ore as well as silver, bismuth and a few others that were undoubtedly not tested for.  The ratio is a tough one to refute, but it's not iron clad proof.  As I said before, I have changed my ammunition to non-toxic for the most part.  This is because I believe that lead ammo is certainly suspect.  I just don't believe it is the entire problem. Josh