sudbury bow discussion

[PatM]

I was just reading about the  l'anse aux meadows site the other day. Seems like the site was fairly easy to study as it was relativity untouched location. I was surprised to see in that article some theories advanced about the translation of the word "vineland? The take away I got was that if vineland did not refer to the wild grapes found in southern New England, then the vikings did not visit the more southerly locations. Implying that the vikings did not go someplace, seems like more of the obfuscation that has always surrounded any investigation about viking settlements in the new world, although I must admit that they were not promoting the "columbus was first" bs anymore.

At any rate, the more southerly locations were more heavily settled , and the better real estate remodeled on many occasions since, more than might have been previously thought by N Americans and for sure by the later Europeans, making viking finds that might establish there presence in Massachusetts, hard to make sense of.

Brad- the alien influence is further south in the DC area.

Wild Grapes are found in Canada as well. There is no reason to believe vineland has to be any further south than the Gulf of St Lawrence.

[riverrat]

wild grapes huh? ever been to any woods in Ohio, it could be vinland lol.this kind of stuff makes me wonder. it could very possibly be a home grown idea. as for the style of that bow. but it could of been influenced as well from outside. no way im buying it was aliens though, they never found any range finders ,lazer sights or wrist mountable computer angle compensators...dont ask me how i know that about them martian bows...oh. i wasnt suppose to let that slip.lol Tony

[willie]

It does seem that everyone here is using the words "could have' judiciously. And of course anything was possible. Not necessarily coming to conclusions yet.

Pat- I have spent a lot of time with guys on boats, and your observation of what typically happens is spot on. However it is interesting to note that the first "successful" settlement of the new world didn't occur until European diseases took a huge toll on the Native Americans. There are reports of  many large empty settlements, decimated by epidemic. Of course they would be on the better sites, and the Europeans moved right in at a staggering rate after 1620. Seems that the vikings complained about the "skraelings" dissuading them from their endeavors. What do you think might have happened to the  half European children?

I had not heard that about the range of the wild grapes, it opens up the possibilities even further. It is certainly easier to speculate about what might have been, than to defend assertations of what didn't happen, as commonly happens when some of the folks who make a living at this stuff sometimes are prone to do. Are you sure it wasn't martians, Tony?

[OTDEAN]

It is well documented that English settlers set up in Virginia in 1607 which predates the Sudbury bow.  Its not difficult to believe that English settlers had brought longbows with them.  Guess that is irrelevant though since they were bend in the handle bows as well.

[Hrothgar]

Hi gang, I've been following this post with interest and trying to observe without taking sides as far as the possible origins of the Sudbury-style bow is concerned. Who barrowed from whom first I can't speculate. But this discussion has me realizing that many/most of the older composite bows which were used by the Persians, Egyptians, Huns, Ottomans, Mongols, etc. had deeper narrowed handles. Giving the interaction between the northern European Christian countries and the Muslims of Asia Minor during the Crusades, Europeans would have been familiar with handles and different designs...just thinking out loud.

[loefflerchuck]

I think implying that natives of the east were not capable of independent invention as simple as a narrowed handle is a little insulting. National Geographic History magazine just came out with an article on Vikings in the new world. In it it was stated they did travel as far south as New England, but were not able to land as it was heavily populated by unfriendly people. I've considered the sheephorn bows of the great basin and plains could have had a asiatic influence as well as the paddle bows of California and northwest(also narrowed handle). It just seems mote likely that these things were figured out on their own IMHO. Good topic though.
Bows of eastern Siberia are very much like Eskimo bows from what I have seen.

[riverrat]

not implying that at all. it very well could be that it was a well thought out design . it just seems odd the one needle in a haystack of different kinds of needles. Tony

[riverrat]

i like Native American bows of all the types they made. they are all well thought out designs. all worked for what 10,000 years or so? tells me its a good design.Tony

[bradsmith2010]

I dont think it is a needle in the haystack, there were thousands of bows made that we know nothing about, what we have left to study, is a very small percentage of the bows that were made in those thousands of years, and probably not representative of what the real story my be,, hard to piece together a true view,, with such little evidence,, at least that is what my archeologist friend tells me,,