Build Along ( building by mass)

[George Tsoukalas]

Badger, the one that is an oz. heavier is twisted. Justin, both bows bend at the end of the fades. I'll post some pics of bow #2 in a sec. Jawge

[George Tsoukalas]

Justin, you are correct. On shorter bows I will let the fades and handle bend but I only do that if the stave is short. If you want I can give handle measurements. Bow #2 is 1.25 in. wide at the pass and 1.5 in thick. Both bows are tillered elliptically. Tips are stiff. My style of shooting - quick - demands no stacking. None. Stiff tips contribute to smoothness of draw, as you all now. jawge

[Badger]

Jawge, where they start to bend is actually not as important as how much paralell limb you have. I use the stiff handle and fade calculation to accomadate that, maybe I should change the name of that particular calculation, it does confuse a lot of people. This part is pretty subjective. I use an 8" handle and fade on my bows and it start to flex right in the fades. I usually make my limbs paralell to mid limb and then smooth out the transition so it tapers up even further, so for my bows usually 10" is the figure I use. If I run the paralell down to within about 13" of the tip then I might use the 12" figure for stiff handle and fade. In the chapter comming out in TB4 it is expalined in more detail. Steve

[George Tsoukalas]

Badger that was in reference to Justin's question. Badger, both of these bows are character bows though Bow #2 more so than #1.  The amount of parallel limb is dependent upon the tiller for me.  Bow #2 has no limb with parallel portions. The idea is this-when tillering a wide limbed bow (bow #2 is 1/5/8 at the widest point), there comes a point when the limb gets too thin for my tastes, a point when the stave does not respond quickly enough to belly removal then I begin to narrow. I learned this lesson the hard way. LOL.  Anyway, time for a nap. Gotta get ready for the Pats. I'll post pictures of Bow #2 first. I think it was Justin who asked for them. I don't want to monopolize your thread. Jawge

[George Tsoukalas]

Full draw

[George Tsoukalas]

Other side. Always a good idea to flip the bow around when checking tiller.

Braced.

Twist, snaky too.


Unbraced.


Jawge

[George Tsoukalas]

It worked. Nap time. Go Pats! Jawge

[Badger]

Jawge, thanks for posting those pics, that helps a lot and makes the explanation easier as well, By the way i like the tiller on that bow, makes for a nice smooth draw. Your bow is bending pretty good right out of the fade in the pic so I would stick with the 8" for handle and fade, the outer limb is relatively stiff but very well tillered so I would use a draw length figure of 30" because of the outer stiffness, This would put you at aboput 21.5 ounces, I would have likely narrowed the outer imbs a bit more to drop the extra 1 1/2 ounces but really not that important still in a good ball park range. Steve

[George Tsoukalas]

Thanks, Steve. Can't sleep. Game hasn't started and I'm all wound up. LOL. Jawge

[Justin Snyder]

George, thanks for posting the pictures.  I didn't mean bendy handle bows, I just hear you reminding people that they haven't got their fades bending on rigid handle bows.  Some of us end our fades but do a bad job of getting the first 3" of limb bending, which actually just makes the fades longer.  I listen to your advice.  I like that style of tiller to with its quick recovery.

Steve, so you add to the draw length for stiff tips, correct. I'm understanding the tillering idea a little better thanks to this discussion. Not just tiller to use with the formula, but tiller as it pertains to the layout of the limb.  Justin

[Badger]

Justin, the reason I add for stiff tips is that the base formula is an arc of the circle, if the tips or outer limbs were bending more or evenly it would be drawing out a couple of inches further, So the stiff outer limbs add some stress to the inner working limb where I would apply the extra mass. On more extreme stiff outer limbs where the last 14 or so inches are almost rigid I figure a 32" draw for an actual 28" draw. As with any method the bowyer will modify it to suit his materials or needs, I find with some materials I figure everthing much more conservatibve and other materials I tend to figure them a bit tighter just because I have a pretty good idea what to expect. Several months ago I had several of our euro bow building brothers give me the length and draw weight only of their better performing war bows, they were really amazed that in most cases the formula was within 1 oz of actual weight. I had to do kind of a crash course in refining it when interest was shown about publishing it. I did find a few ticks in it when applied to different types of bows and with the help and coopertion of several guys on line it seemed to come together really nicely. I do everything by eye and feel when I make bows but when it comes to the mass I really live by it. Steve

[Justin Snyder]

Thanks Steve, I understand.  I was trying to add to the handle for the stiff outer limbs because it would reduce the working limb. It makes more sense to add to draw because 3" of handle will weigh more than 6" of limb tip. The parallel limb adjustment is similar to holmegaard design in tiller and mass. More work is done in the inner limb so the limbs must stay wider for a longer distance, and consequently weigh more. You adjust the handle length a little so the formula will allow the extra mass.  Justin

[nailbender]

  Alright, I just want to make double sure that I am figuring things correctly. I want to make a 54" ntn bend through the handle bow. I want it to draw about 50#@27". The stave has about 1" natural reflex. According to my figures this bow should come in at approximately 11 oz.. If I decide on a somewhat elliptical tiller, I'm figuring about 13oz. Do I have this correct?
  Dale.

[Badger]

Dale that sounds about right, only thing you would add for is the elyptical tiller, and the reflex. 27" is 1/2 of 54" so no add on there. 54" is where it starts so no add on there, 1 oz per 5# draw and about 1/2 oz for the reflex. Steve

[nailbender]

 Thanks, now I go to make some shavings .
  Dale.