Bannerstone Discussion

[Zuma]

More photos. Oh I forgot some of the photos how the cane was preped for hafting and how I align the drill and shaft. I think the four equal sided bit is best for long holes?

[swamp monkey]

I saw a discussion like this on Paleo planet where the spindle whorl and atlatl weight thing was discussed for pages.  They brought up great information.  Take a trip over and search the atlatl posts to learn more. 

Larry Kinsella has experimented with these in a lot of fascinating ways.  He has made them from igneous and slate rocks using abo procedures.  He even published a paper on the effect of bannerstones on an atlatlist's arms.  The Bannerstone: A Prehistoric, Prey-Specific Artifact Designed for Use in the Eastern Woodlands of North America" is now published in "Ethnoarchaeology: Journal of Archaeological, Ethnographic, and Experimental Studies Vol. #5, Number 1, April 2013.

In that study he worked with some physiologists who showed a hunter using a bannerstone atlatl had less muscle fatigue associated with holding the dart in a pre-launch position.  All hunters know that holding still for long periods can be agonizing and cause muscle fatigue and shakes.  Could they help with that.  Larry's research indicates they can so we can't rule that out.

Larry has also won the World Atlatl Association distance competition with an atlatl that had a bannerstone on it.  He competed against others who used "bannerstone-less" atlatls.  Please don't misunderstand me to say they are are superior.  I am just saying they can perform.  again you can't rule them out for this.

I think the Indian Knoll Kentucky burials are worth investigating.  If you look at the burials you find atlatl hooks, handles and bannerstones in their original positions.  This occurs not once, not twice but multiple times showing this was how they were arranged. 

That is very convincing evidence for me.  Bannerstones in context in an environment that preserved some details. 

Part of figuring something out is determining can it work.  So far I see evidence on both sides of this discussion that show bannerstones CAN function as spindle whorls or on atlatls. I have not heard a convincing functional point to rule out either.

Obviously, I am in the atlatl camp on this one.  Bannerstones disappear with the advent of the bow and I am 100% certain the demand for woven material never went away in the Woodland or Mississippian periods. If anything they went up.  Demand for cord and fabric  persisted well until the Protohistoric period.  Then you see a move away from woven garments but not a total elimination.  If bannerstones were indeed a spindle whorl they why abandon them?  into the Woodland transition?  That is simply a logical argument and not one based on harder facts. 

I think experiments on both sides of the fence help figure what is possible and what can work.  anyone passionate about bannerstones should read up on them and try things out for themselves. 

I once thought some things about atlatl function that I now don't; thanks to new evidence.  I keep an open mind and ask others to dig in and do the same.

Zuma, keep doing what you are doing. 

Respectfully,

A. J. Hendershott
AKA Swamp Monkey

[Zuma]

Swamp, A.J.,
Thanks for your reply and information. I hear Webb mentioned often.
He and the large drilled shell artifacts he calls atatl weights may be just that.
I have looked on Paleo Planet I even joined but find the site difficult to post on.
I saw a thread you did on making a replica of one of Webb's finds.
I think that artifact was a composite of several shells drilled with quite large holes.
Nothing like what I am talking about here.
Have you seen where the winged or shield type stone banners are also found
 by Webb or anyone in context? I can't. All ancient atatls I have seen are flat
shaped and would not fit 3/8-1/2 inch round holes. (Smithsonian link)
I have never seen one with antler either? Have you?
Did Larry use a bannerstone like a winged one? I see he makes atatls with tie on
stones that have no holes. Do you know which type he used when he won the competition?
I really don't pursue textiles and prefer to stay with drilling.
I made what I think may be a bead manufacturing type Abo lathe.
It would work for all types of drilling also. Just think of what one three times bigger could do?
Your point about whorls is interesting. What I have said about banners not making it into the
Woodland era is also interesting. I am not totally sure if all holes like I am talking about
went away also ( like gorgets, pendants etc.) I just can't find info on this as yet.
If all similar drilled holes went away in the same time period, it would be compelling for a drilling
use, and not bad for the new use of the bow. I have no doubt I could duplicate anything in the
useful atatl world with nothing but wood. Much quicker and readily available anywhere.
I really don't like to argue or counter belief in atatl weights. I am shooting for drill weight and turning aid
for the bow drill and like to stay focused on that. Although adding counter thoughts are
 unfortunately part of the program.
A. J. please keep me honest as so much of the entirety of bannerstones is speculation.
We need any and all technical and archaeological info available.
Thanks again, Zuma

[swamp monkey]

I will reply to what i can below.

Swamp, A.J.,
Thanks for your reply and information. I hear Webb mentioned often.
He and the large drilled shell artifacts he calls atatl weights may be just that.
I have looked on Paleo Planet I even joined but find the site difficult to post on.
I saw a thread you did on making a replica of one of Webb's finds.
I think that artifact was a composite of several shells drilled with quite large holes.
Nothing like what I am talking about here.
Have you seen where the winged or shield type stone banners are also found
 by Webb or anyone in context?

look at the pic I posted.  This is just one images of bannerstones and hooks found in context.  I am reviewing Webb's book.  One image was published (i think) showing  things in position. 

I can't. All ancient atlatls I have seen are flat 
Most of your western Atlatls are flat; a few are round though.  One found in Oregon sticks out in my mind.  I made a replica.  It is known as the Nicholarson cave atlatl.  Another was found in California made of willow.  I posted pics of my replicas below. 

Most of your eastern atlatls rot, so precious few made it to be found and described.  Two intact atlatls from the Ozarks and a few more fragments from the Bluff Dweller finds also indicate round cross sections.   Point - atlatls can have a round cross section. 

shaped and would not fit 3/8-1/2 inch round holes. (Smithsonian link)
I have never seen one with antler either? Have you?   

Webb's book has multiple examples of antler hooks. see image below I am also aware of multiple archeological finds across Missouri that sport varieties of antler atlatl hooks.  I suspect they occur across the eastern part of N. America.


Did Larry use a bannerstone like a winged one? I see he makes atlatls with tie on
stones that have no holes. Do you know which type he used when he won the competition?

I do not know, but now that you ask, I am curious.  I will ask and see what it was.    Here is a link to a drilled hole banner that he made.  I think it is the one he used in his examination of the arm strain.   http://flintknapper.com/Larry%27s%20SEAC%20paper.htm

I really don't pursue textiles and prefer to stay with drilling.
I made what I think may be a bead manufacturing type Abo lathe.
It would work for all types of drilling also. Just think of what one three times bigger could do?
Your point about whorls is interesting. What I have said about banners not making it into the
Woodland era is also interesting. I am not totally sure if all holes like I am talking about
went away also ( like gorgets, pendants etc.) I just can't find info on this as yet.

Drilling was indeed necessary for gorgets well into the historic period.  I am aware of shell gorgets from the Mississippian and Proto-historic periods  Some with many holes and others with complex holes.  Further more the production of shell disk beads was at its peak during the Mississippian Period.  Micro drills were in use for drilling the holes.  So, drilling was absolutely needed past the Archaic period.  In fact I would say after the archaic/ woodland transition drilling ramped up along with every other type of prehistoric art form. 
Sorry about getting off topic with textile spinning.  I have read more about the bannerstone drop spindle discussion.  It was stuck in my brain.  I will see if I can find that thread on PP.  Unless I miss my guess many of the historic tribes from the Deep South still made shell gorgets after Euro contact.   I am more versed on the mound builder shell tech than historic tribe use of the same stuff. 

If all similar drilled holes went away in the same time period, it would be compelling for a drilling
use, and not bad for the new use of the bow. I have no doubt I could duplicate anything in the
useful atatl world with nothing but wood. Much quicker and readily available anywhere.
I really don't like to argue or counter belief in atatl weights. I am shooting for drill weight and turning aid
for the bow drill and like to stay focused on that. Although adding counter thoughts are
 unfortunately part of the program.
A. J. please keep me honest as so much of the entirety of bannerstones is speculation. 

Where else can you have this kind of discussion?!!  If I discuss this type of thing with my wife she gets drowsy.     
We need any and all technical and archaeological info available.
Thanks again, Zuma

[swamp monkey]

Here is that PP link where bannerstones are discussed.  You have to skip through some of the flippant stuff to find the meat of the discussion.

http://paleoplanet69529.yuku.com/topic/47286/Those-confusing-atlatl-weights?page=1#.VFaUW2ffWKo
Read every page of it.  There is a lot of good points on both sides.  The post title says it all.  Those confusing atlatl weights.

Let's keep talking and keep experimenting.

[swamp monkey]

Objects as found in grave.  There was some settling as decomp occurred.  Banners with antler hooks.  Other graves had banners with handles, while still others had banners with both antler handles and antler hooks. 

[Zuma]

Swamp,
Thanks for posting all the info. Here are my thoughts.

In the photos with antler hooks there are no winged or shield type banners.
The cave find has a stone with no hole and the willow has no stone at all.
Paleo Planet, Larry and one of the links I posted  mention that there are no drilled
bannerstones west of the Mississippi. I am not sure about all this as I am trying to associate drilled winged banners with drilling.
In your last images of the grave components, do you know the diameter of the antler and the drilled components? Do they match? I can't find the total report from Indian Knolls. If I could I might find some clue as to how all those stones were drilled.??
Zuma

[Parnell]

Wow Zuma, really doing this well.

[swamp monkey]

Swamp,
Thanks for posting all the info. Here are my thoughts.

In the photos with antler hooks there are no winged or shield type banners.
The cave find has a stone with no hole and the willow has no stone at all.
Paleo Planet, Larry and one of the links I posted  mention that there are no drilled
bannerstones west of the Mississippi. I am not sure about all this as I am trying to associate drilled winged banners with drilling.
In your last images of the grave components, do you know the diameter of the antler and the drilled components? Do they match? I can't find the total report from Indian Knolls. If I could I might find some clue as to how all those stones were drilled.??
Zuma

.here are some quick answers to two of your questions.   I am aware of definite drilled winged bannerstones from Missouri archeological site. 

The holes are roughly 13 mm in diameter in the banners and the antler Spurs. 

[Zuma]

Thanks Parnell.
A lot of the thanks goes to Swampy and Jack. They are well versed in atatl technology and willing to share.

Swampy-- In a way I was just trying to confirm whether or not wings showed up at the Knolls
because I don't think the more tubular shape would be used for drilling. Those antlers and banners
 in your images are really quite compelling. The image says ik ky. does that mean they were all found at the knolls? If so do you know where the ones that were not in graves were found?
I am confused as there is no image of what a complete atatl from Indian knolls would look like?
In the grave images the antlers are not plugged into the banners? I wish I could get all the images and reports for that site. Just to many questions.
It would be interesting to be able to date each and every drilled stone type and see how  they mesh/ evolve along with the drilling methods of the eras.
Here is a drill related links.  It is not America but very in depth and interesting.
       The Change from Stone Drills to Copper Drills in Mesopotamia   

[swamp monkey]

Swampy-- " The image says ik ky. does that mean they were all found at the knolls? Yes, you are correct, that means that image was from Indian knoll KY.
I am confused as there is no image of what a complete atatl from Indian knolls would look like?
In the grave images the antlers are not plugged into the banners? I wish I could get all the images and reports for that site. Just to many questions.

Below is an image of what one of these atlatls would have looked like more or less.  The bannerstones are not exactly like those found in Indian Knoll.  I am just saying that for full disclosure,
Do a web search on "Atlatls and Bannerstones: Excavations at Indian Knoll" by William Webb.  I promise you will find a someone who sells this book. 

[Zuma]

Swampy,
Those atals are real cool looking.
Don't get me wrong----
There is just something about that configuration that don't sit right with me.
I realize you say the real finds had different stones. "More tubular I think"
First I would worry about cracking myself in the head or ear with that type
banner. (winged or shield) Also stabilizing the dart shaft on the rig, looks like it would
 be very difficult. Also I think the wing shape would produce erratic results as
 the wing would cause a planning of sorts.(To many diverse surfaces for air to pass over)
And of course all the technical aspects of creating such a tool when a plain stick
will do the job quite well. No offence just my 2 cents.
Zuma

[swamp monkey]

Swampy,
Those atals are real cool looking.
Don't get me wrong----
There is just something about that configuration that don't sit right with me.
I realize you say the real finds had different stones. "More tubular I think"
First I would worry about cracking myself in the head or ear with that type
banner.

I have used both of those atlatls and I assure you cracking you head is not a worry 

(winged or shield) Also stabilizing the dart shaft on the rig, looks like it would
 be very difficult.

I haven't noticed any difficulty.
Also I think the wing shape would produce erratic results as
 the wing would cause a planning of sorts.(To many diverse surfaces for air to pass over)
The stones do resist acceleration which is why the sound is suppressed when you throw.  Slow moving things make less wind noise.   However, wind resistance is minor and provides no effect.

And of course all the technical aspects of creating such a tool when a plain stick
will do the job quite well. No offence just my 2 cents.

No offense taken.  I too wonder why they did this.  I have to realize i don't live like they did nor have their customs.  So I will always be at some disadvantage to understand this.  One thing I know is that hunter gathers had time for projects in winter and this may have been one of many things they decided to occupy their time with.  Create elaborate bannerstones.   
Zuma

[Zuma]

Great reply Swamp.
I guess I am a bit unfair in my assessment of weighted atatls as I haven't actually tried them out.
Perhaps the Indian Knolls finds are more ceremonial or made for high status folks.
Also there may be a distinction between which banners were for hunting and which for drilling and possible textile use.
I tied one end of my ABO lathe string to a branch on my cherry tree.
It returns the string real well. It bobbles a bit when the branch returns
because of all the other smaller branches springing around.
A single branch or sapling would be better. Next is a weight over a stable
branch on the end of the string.

[swamp monkey]

More on bannertones. A paper on the topic.

http://www.maneyonline.com/doi/pdfplus/10.1179/1944289013Z.0000000003