Bannerstone Discussion

[JackCrafty]

As far as drills being found with bannerstones on the same sites, I don't know.  I'll need to research that.  But the time period for bannerstones was about 6000 B.P. to 3000 B.P.  This was a VERY long period (at least 3000 years) and many drills have been dated to this period  ( Middle Archaic to Late Archaic ) .... so the possibility of finding both together is certainly there.

[JackCrafty]

So, I looked for examples of bannerstones found West of the "Big Muddy" and found a few posted by a collector who found them near Caddo Lake, which straddles the border between Texas and Louisiana.

---http://www.arrowheadology.com/forums/hardstone/48647-more-bannerstone-halves.html

[Zuma]

Thank you so much Jack.
This is the info we need.
I wrote this before your last post.
Thanks again for being involved. Means a lot.
Please don't take me in a negative way.
But let's look at the images.
Frame one is dart shafts. I can go with that.
Frame two is fore shafts. I can go with that.
The next to last frame gives you the area where a 3/8" -1/2"
bannerstone is supposed to fit???
Think about it. Could they slip those drilled stones up from the handle end??
Yes and btw the last frame is Larry's modern interpretation from Paleo Planet.
I would sure like his input here.
It takes him like ten hours to drill a banner hole??
I have been at this for quite awhile and no matter what the reality of these modified
stones, is that they are totally fascinating. IMO equal to the ability for Clovis man to strike a flute.
Naw more advanced.
Please don't let my bias coerce your thoughts and keep you from posting them.
Attempting to solve mysteries is fun. Please join in.
Zuma

[JackCrafty]

Zuma, I like these discussions as well. 

Just to be clear, I don't think the drilled bannerstones were atlatl weights.  I think you don't believe that either, but I'm not sure.  I get confused when you mention that a drilled bannerstone might be able to be slipped onto the atlatl from the narrow end.  I don't believe this was done in the Southwest  ( or anywhere else ) and I think you agree with this but, again, I'm not sure.

On a side note, as far as grooved stones go, I consider some of these to be atlatl weights but I have seen discussions that call these "bannerstones" as well and it can get confusing.  There are certainly grooved stones found everywhere in the US and, since these are sometimes called bannerstones  ( or boatstones ) , it's difficult to have a clear discussion sometimes.

I try to keep them separated in my side of the discussion by using only the term "atlatl weights" for weights actually attached to an atlatl and "bannerstones" or "boatstones" as mysterious items.

Your experiments with bannerstones as drill weights is very interesting.  I think you are definitely onto something.  I think drilling was important enough to spend time making "fancy" tools for drilling.  Drilling is certainly a more logical use for the bannerstones than for atlatl weights, simply because atlatls are subject to a lot of abuse and are easily dropped or otherwise mishandled which could lead to the breakage of delicate bannerstones.

Again, just to be clear, there are real atlatl artifacts that clearly have stone weights attached.  I believe that atlatl weights were used and that there is no doubt of their existence.

Some have put forth the idea that drilled bannerstones would slide up and down the atlatl during a throw, but I don't see any logic to this idea whatsoever.

I'll try to find some atlatl artifact pictures from areas other than the southwest.  I think I remember seeing some from the Northeast.

[Zuma]

No problem Jack.
I was a little sarcastic and not very clear about the Bannerstone atatl fit.
 I am glad you agree about the drilling possibility and make good points for it.
 I have a good link for atatls from Alaska and Canada.
A collection maintained by the Smithsonian I think.
These are quite elaborate. I hope everyone has a look. No rocks.
For me there is really no need to discuss atatls at all, except to try and explain
that the common winged type banner does not fit on known ancient atatls
but is a perfect fit for arrow type shafts.
Atatl limbs are wider and flat, not cylindrical and 3/8" in diameter.
To tackle all the other types, like boat and bird stones would be a side to the
drilling as research may turn up interesting info on those artifacts also.
There is a lot of work left IMO to just understand the evolution of North American
ABO drilling. So far the links I have found have opened some doors for things like
dates and Provence. Putting together all the different info in a cronical order along
with associated archaeological data may help shed some light on these winged bannerstones.
  Smithsonian Atlatls - ImageEvent 

[JacksonCash]

This discussion is fascinating. I'm going to have to find some time to read the links provided.

[Zuma]

Thanks for being interested Jackson,
You will have to tip toe throught the tulips to make heads or tails of the info.
But the screws are turning in a good direction.
Here is a blurb from a link that I like. Well this part. lol
Zuma

 Connaway also made a great discovery while examining the long tubular beads. Looking through a microscope he discovered striations caused by grinding encircled the beads. This meant that they had been hafted and turned on a lathe. Interestingly, Connaway found that one bead had been partially drilled and in the hole he discovered the stone drill bit. The drill had become wedged in the bead and had broken. The bit, about the size of a grain of rice, was made of the local Citronelle gravel. By carefully studying the Keenan cache Connaway was able to deduce the steps of manufacture employed by the bead maker. Additionally, the fact that so many beads were found together in an unfinished state strongly suggested a specialist at work. Previously, such craftsmanship had not been thought to exist in this period. Further data from Louisiana, at a site across the river south of Vicksburg, also suggests that specialists were making beads there. In summary, some bead makers were at least part-time craft specialists. The tools employed in the manufacture of stone beads were rather sophisticated. A lathe and a form of drill press were used, and possibly also a bow drill, even though the bow and arrow was unknown in America at this time period. 

  Prehistoric Mississippi: Some New Perspectives | Mississippi ...

[Zuma]

I made a couple more bannerstones.
One thing that is cool about making them is--- It's pretty easy
 to get them balanced. After I get the basic shape, then I drill the hole.
This is interesting as I would think hole length is not the most important
aspect in getting a banner balanced or aerodynamic. It could be a hint in their evolution. The butterfly type is an example of this.
The two banners I made have the same length holes but the butterfly one has much more weight.
The shape of the wings really lends itself towards refining the balance of the
banner. Most of these type banners have wing shapes that taper to the edges.
In other words if you slip a shaft that fits a little loosely through the hole of
a near finished banner, the heavier wing will tilt down.
By then grinding a little on the heavier wing you can get the banner well balanced.
IMO balance is all important for a drilling aid.
Zuma

[JacksonCash]

I showed this thread to my wife- she just finished her thesis on manufacturing methods of beads. The ones she studied were all from southern France though. She thinks the flywheel idea is a good one. I agree with your statements about the butterfly or winged style being easy to balance. I would think that a disk would make a better flywheel when balanced, but it would be harder to balance. That is my opinion, but I've not tried to balance either...

I've got a question about your drill rig - Have you tried mounting the banner stone lower, towards the tip? I would think that would lend some stability to the bit.

Also, does anyone know if these types of stones have been found all over the world, or just in the Americas? My wife hadn't heard of them previously, but all of her research is in Europe.

[Zuma]

Jackson   As far as discs go--- I don't know of any being found. Have you seen some?
They would certainly be easy to make. There are tons of gorgets and other slate artifacts drilled through the flat side of slate etc.
Personally I don't think they would work as well as wings. The wings seem to have a definite part in the spin and reversal of the shaft. I would like to see how the air moves around different  types of bannerstones. In smoke, dry ice mist, inferred etc. They may sort of work like a propeller. One of the links said most often the wings are somewhat twisted.
Mine are pretty flat but perhaps I will make a bent one if I get to see some from digs.
The position I like best is the bow string right above the drill bit. It seems most natural when kneeling. I don't think it makes much difference in speed or wobble since the shaft is so short. Then again when the string is highest it can have a tendency to push/pull the swivel block and left hand a bit more.
The more I look into drilling the more beads show up. They may be key to some of the drilling evolution.
Any info your wife can help us with will be interesting and appreciated.
Thanks, Zuma

[JacksonCash]

I'll see what she has to say on the subject. Here is a link to the collection she was able to study:
https://www.beloit.edu/logan_online/exhibitions/virtual_exhibitions/before_history/europe/abri_blanchard.php

[DC]

Zuma, are you somehow attaching the stone to the spindle or is it free to spin?

[Zuma]

Thanks for the link Jackson.
Thinking about the bead industry has now made me question the small pointy
stones that some are calling atatl hooks. A lot show up in California where there
 was plenty of stone and shell beads like abalone etc.
How neat they would fit into a hollow in a piece of cane. With a little hoof glue Wala drill a bead.

DC--- I whittle a strip off a branch with a knife. It makes a nice slender wedge with an arc
that fits the hole of the banner. That way the weight pushes down against the wedge and the banner is secure. It moves with the shaft. Pops back off nicely.
Zuma

[Zuma]

  I made this one today

[Zuma]

Well I finally got back to CANE. As the photos will show, I reversed the ends of the cane.
Wether this helped the most is hard to tell because when I was drilling with abrasive dust I didn't realize that I had the shape of the cane wrong. I had to much drag on the shaft with the rounded shape causing the string to slip and deteriorate. In the photo I tried to draw the square end proper shape.
I made a new drill bit. It was wider than the one I made from English flint.
Perhaps it was a little softer as I re sharpened it a couple times before it broke. I think it's heat treated Edwards.
Think I will just use raw rock from now on.
The drilling time was pretty good but a little slower than the English.
Perhaps to do with the fact that it a wider bit and the softness?
It took about twelve minuets to drill almost all the way through the soapstone.
It would have taken longer to finish the hole as it needed to be wider all the way through.
The string stretched and I re-tightened it several times. The last time, I think to tight as that  is when I snapped the bit. I think it was due to the string being to tight and the drill wedging when I gave to much force to start the rotation. Still a lot to learn. LOL I can now try the cane with dust again as I snapped the drill I hafted to it. Oh and I used the same banner.
Zuma