Tudor bodkin forging

[ScottRoush]

Hi folks..

Do people here know the forging sequence for Tudor bodkins?  It seems to me that a swage was used and indeed somebody shared with me a very quick clip of somebody using a guillotine-like tool to smash in the wings.  But was this done over solid steel with the socket behind it.. i.e. the mid-rib being of solid steel.. or was this done with essentially a hollow cone.. for example a cone shaped socket is forged and then placed into the swage giving a hollow mid-rib?   I hope I'm clear here.. because I'm struggling to express myself!

[Pat B]

You might get a more informed answer if you posted this on the "War Bow" section.

[ScottRoush]

Sure.. that makes sense. My simple mind saw 'arrows' so I posted in 'arrows'... but I'm sure the knowledgeable folk are over there.

[Pat B]

I'll move it there for you. 

[Goose Fletch]

hey scott,

i know what you mean, its a question ive wondered myself for ages now. ive been forging my own points but wanted those lightweight tudor points. if youre referring to the video of simon stanley, i think while it might provide a good visual, the actual point he is holding doesnt look much like the ones you see for sale.

good of you to post this, as i was wondering the same thing: does the cone resist the crush of the clamp-like jig. i would say to you though, you wont learn quite as fast posting questions as you will by beating guillotine jig into a point...i found some steel stock around here which i might use to build some such press..

have you got a forge set up right now?

[ScottRoush]

Thanks for the response.

Yes.. I'm a full time bladesmith and I've made a few bodkins and other points. And now that I'm finishing up a yew warbow I'm thinking about making some again.

I have a guillotine tool.. two dies set up on a moving jaw that I used to use for drawing out stock before getting my press and hammer. I can carve the bodkin shape into those dies.  My plan is to just forge a socket with a little meat left for the very point and then just press in the shape.

Another thing I was going to post in a separate thread but so that I don't flood the forum with my inquiries I will ask here...  What are the characteristics of the 'flight arrow'?  I have an interest in distance shooting with my bow once it's complete and would like an accurate flight arrow.  And an aside question.. what exactly was the purpose of these lightweight arrows? I've heard 'range finding'.. but not sure where I heard/read that...

[ScottRoush]

So I actually haven't seen the ones for sale or handled any at all.  Do you know if they are hollow all the way up the point? If they are then, for me, that pretty much solves how they were made.  The dies I'm making would work great for just smashing the shape in with my guillotine.   I guess the fact that you say 'lightweight' implies they are hollow for the most part.

Thanks for the response.

Yes.. I'm a full time bladesmith and I've made a few bodkins and other points. And now that I'm finishing up a yew warbow I'm thinking about making some again.

I have a guillotine tool.. two dies set up on a moving jaw that I used to use for drawing out stock before getting my press and hammer. I can carve the bodkin shape into those dies.  My plan is to just forge a socket with a little meat left for the very point and then just press in the shape.

Another thing I was going to post in a separate thread but so that I don't flood the forum with my inquiries I will ask here...  What are the characteristics of the 'flight arrow'?  I have an interest in distance shooting with my bow once it's complete and would like an accurate flight arrow.  And an aside question.. what exactly was the purpose of these lightweight arrows? I've heard 'range finding'.. but not sure where I heard/read that...

[WillS]

Here are a couple of variations, Scott.

These are made by Milos Lasky Krizan from Slovakia (the guy I usually get to make my points as he's exceptionally talented and very well priced!) and I personally love the look of his Tudor bods.  They look very business-like and not overly fancy or fantastical.  The Tudor head that was found at Portchester Castle is very similar to these and I think Milos bases his off Mark Stretton's heads anyway.  These are hollow all the way through to the tip of the cone.






The other one is a slightly more over-the-top approach.  Not sure who makes these, but they're much closer to Simon's bodkin in that video.  It's clearly been pressed rather than hammered and the edges simply ground down.  These aren't hollow the whole way - the socket stops where the neck is, and then it's solid metal.



Hope this helps a bit?

[WillS]

By the way, Milos' heads are generally 9 grams exactly.

[WillS]

One more thing...

Here's Mark Stretton holding (on the left) the original genuine Tudor head, found at Portchester Castle and (on the right) his own version of it. 



Looking at them now, it's clear that the larger of the two types I posted above (the more fancy one) is actually a lot closer to the original than Milos', but I still personally prefer Milos' work.

[ScottRoush]

Thanks Will.

It seems to me then that the proper way is to press a hollow cone then.  This would make for a very light weight point and very practical for a smith to make.   The challenge would be to make sure the cone is forge welded over a mandrel so that you don't have a seam running up through the point. Unless you can leave just a bit of steel beyond the socket itself?  Well anyway.. I guess when I get some time I will see how it plays out.

[WillS]

Good luck! Will be interested to see what you come up with.

[Cameroo]

I'm interested to see what you come up with too.  I can't wrap my head around how those light-weight ones with the hollow cone running up the majority of the head would be made.  In order to roll the cone you need a triangle-ish shape of uniform thickness, but I can't see how the "blade" parts on the side could be formed without leaving some excess metal on the sides...

I prefer the appearance of those smaller ones as well, so I'd be curious to see how they are made.  They would be great for some lighter-weight arrows.

[Goose Fletch]

Scott, would it be too much to ask for you to make a video?

[gianluca100]

Do you really think they forge welded every arrow point for mass production?
My thought is that you forge a kind of flattened bodkin with the seam stopping right at the base of the head and the you press it in a swage and chissel the excess off.
I'm only a hobby blacksmih and up to now I only forged bodkins or similar easy to make arrow heads...

Are there seams on the bodkins shown in the pictures above? Because everytime when arrow heads are presented the side with the seam is never, never shown 

ciao,
gianni