Can flake over grinding be done ABO?

[seminolewind]

I was looking into flake over grinding and wondered if it could be done with primitive tools. I know most modern knappers start with a slab ground into a lenticular shape then take a row of final flakes from the ground preform. The final product is awesome but it seems like it could hardly be called knapping to me. What I'm wondering is if anyone has ever tried creating a preform with percussion and pressure then ground it by hand (much like a stone axe or war club) then took a final row of flakes off for the asthetic value?

[mullet]

There is evidence that the very thin Newnan and Hillsboro points were hand ground after heat treating. I've watched Claude VanOrder hand grind some preforms to make them more uniform.

[papoints]

I think that the Gerzean (sp?) knives in Egypt were ground at least on one side.

[iowabow]

I watched a video the other day where a guy hand ground a celt from chert. Kinda cool.

[seminolewind]

It sounds like it is possible, ill have to give it a try one day. You gotta love how those flake scars look with that grinding.

[Hillbilly]

Yep, the Egyptian knives and Danish daggers and some other styles were hand-ground after percussion reduction. Lotta work, though.

Eddie-that's pretty interesting about the Hillies, never heard that, makes a lot of sense, though. Some of those old ones that Rick has look almost FOGed, for sure-perfect flake patterns.

[mullet]

Steve, I've only seen that in the heat treated, paper thin, high dollar ones,,like Ricks.

[seminolewind]

Grinding after knapping seems like a lot of work to go through especially if you were an ancient craftsman making stone tools merely for survival. Correct me if I'm wrong but the only benefit from FOG would be the asthetics of having perfect flake scars ? I could however see how grinding a dagger smooth would help its durability by eliminating weak spots for continued breakage, much like stone axes, but is there evidence of flaking being done after this? I was wondering if any points were knapped ground and knapped again making a final pass for the perfect scars. If not I guess FOG is a totally modern technology developed merely for the looks of the point?

Thanks for your input ya'll !

[mullet]

The smoother it is the easier the penetration. You can make larger holes with less weight, better blood trail in thick, Fl. vegetation. Ask Hillbilly about that.

[Parnell]

I'd think iit wouldn't be that far of a stretch considering other things like bannerstones, pendants, pipe bowls, etc.?

[papoints]

It would be interesting to know if a fogged point would penetrate better than a point of the same size and weight but with a random flake pattern. 

[Dalton Knapper]

The Gerzean knives in Egypt were certainly done with the Flake Over Grinding (FOG) process, but flaked only on one side. It was probably knapped first, then ground because they apparently could not "slab" chert.  I believe both sides were ground, but for some reason, only one side was flaked. The term "abo" as you know it may not apply however because it is quite likely that metal tipped pressure flakers were used - so is that "abo" or not? I have seen these hafted in gold handles in museums.

Here's a look at the blade: http://www.lithiccastinglab.com/gallery-pages/2000octobergerzean.htm

I also know that in North America, some points were knapped as you and I would do it (abo of course), then ground to varying degrees of smoothness, but I am not aware of any that included the additional process of knapping, grinding, then re-pressure flaking (except the Egyptian Gerzeans). I believe that when they were ground, that was the look they were going for (in the Americas).

Interesting topic.

[caveman2533]

Gregg Nunn has hand ground several Danish dagger types. I think in his one video he states that he measured  17 miles of grinding to grind one dagger, both sides.   Most of the ground points here in the states I also think were of a slate material of some sort.   I have always want to try grinding a big preform and then percussion knapping it instead of pressure flaking it.

[seminolewind]

 Dalton that is really cool I have never seen those before. You're right they were ground on both sides then one was flaked. I also looked at the other picture showing the edge work up close, I kinda leads me to believe one side remained flat so that it could be resgarpened with grinding followed by more micro flaking. Sure would take some time to make that though considering they had no way to slab!

[seminolewind]

Check this out here is an article I just found. This dude does just what were talking about...

.ginellames.fr/us/tailler_le_silex/chainop_couteau.php