Horsebow shape without the horn?

[kevinsmith5]

Has anyone ever seen or made a bow with the shape of a horsebow (double curve like a Hun or Scythian) without the horn? Maybe with sinew but no horn? And yes, I know a lot of people use that "F" word but it won't be me.

[PatM]

I'm surprised this question still gets asked. Many people have made those styles of bows with just wood and sinew. Many of the historical bows were actually close to five feet long and didn't actually have that setback grip that is so popular in FG replicas.

[kevinsmith5]

I've never even vaguely attempted a horsebow before. Are there build alongside for this?

This question came up because in attempting to get the SCA to actually promote archery that would be PERIOD correct for the time they allege to be modeling themselves after (pre-17th century) it was proposed to have a class of scores where cut out shelves and that "F" word not be allowed. The horsebow shooters pitched an unholy fit saying they'd be driven out because a non-fiberglass horsebow costs (quote) $1200 and would be very unstable. So I'm gonna see about making one that doesn't have the "f" word.....

[PatM]

Well they would be wrong and uninformed.

[kevinsmith5]

Not shocking.
Could I do a bamboo back and a thin ipe belly (or more bamboo) and epoxy it to a high reflex or do you think there is no way to accomplish this without sinew? I'm looking for performance comparable to an F-word bow (which my understanding of horsebow knock offs is that they're generally un-impressive in performance).

[kiltedcelt]

kevinsmith5,

Funny how so  much of the SCA is about trying to be all historically accurate but when it comes to archery it's almost anything goes, other than compound bows. I've messed about with the SCA off an on for the last few years and it's always amazed me how many folks put so much time into their garb but then give up when it comes to trying to have period-correct archery tackle. As for your question, you could get a pretty convincing Asiatic-looking composite bow using only bamboo back and belly with either some other wood for a core or even all bamboo. James Parker has made some pretty amazing bows that were all bamboo. I have a 'Bows of the World' book that mentions (along with one of the TBB volumes), that one of the Asiatic bows was in fact all bamboo and didn't use horn and sinew. It might have been a Mongol bow if I remember correctly. The bamboo belly would need to be heat treated (carbonized), to get it to be stronger in compression. I've played a bit with this design in the past but so far have had no success. I've tried emailing James Parker in the past to ask about his construction methods but he's never answered any emails I sent him through his website or private messages through here or one of the other archery forums. So, you're on your own regarding that. The ATARN website might be helpful, but I think it's mostly horn/sinew composites folks are doing over there, although I can't confirm, not having been on their board much.

[kevinsmith5]

I've found some references to traditional Korean all bamboo horsebows, looking for buildsalongs on that.
The unstrung profiles of the FG bows I've found don't look to reflexed, I may just take a crack at making one seat of my pants.

[bubby]

sweet bow Pat

[kevinsmith5]

And I've been told quite a few times in the past week that they're not "reenacting" the past....

[PatM]

[kevinsmith5]

Some details in the construction Pat?

[PatM]

The first is Elm and sinew with spliced in Ash tips. It is  62 inches and I'm drawing it about 33 inches in the picture.
 The second is Ash backed Ipe with spliced in Ash siyahs. It is 55 inches and I pulled it back to destruction to test the limits. It popped a sliver at 28 inches.
 I'm going to repair it with a fresh backing and a layer of sinew.

[kevinsmith5]

Sinew backing on both? Did you tiller the belly or the width?

[PatM]

No sinew on the second one(yet). I tillered from the belly. There is also a bit of incidental side tillering when refining the edges,

[kiltedcelt]

I think I remember Pat posting that bow a couple years back. If I remember correctly, it doesn't have an extreme amount of reflex when it's unstrung. I think you can get a "horsebow" profile simply by having heavily reflexed siyahs and a more circular tiller to the working parts of the limbs. The only problem is a bow with say a bamboo back but wood belly is that it will have low cast because there isn't enough compression resistance in the belly without horn and if the siyahs are heavy as well. All of the bows I've seen that were all bamboo and supposedly were fast shooters with minimal handshock were ones without actual siyahs and were a bit more like an extreme recurve. Also, the bellies were pretty well toasted on those bows. Now with that being said, I have seen an all-hickory horsebow look-alike. How it shot, I have no idea, but I'm still interested in trying something similar myself one of these days.