war arrows of the mary rose?

[AH]

I originally posted this in the arrows section, then realized that I would most likely get more responses in the EWB forum. So..

I was just wondering,
what are you guy's thoughts on the lengths of the arrows on the Mary Rose? From what I've read online, apparently the average was 30.5", but whenever we see a warbow it's always drawn to 32"..? were the average draw legnths really just that short, or was the arrow legnth increased with a long head? I always wonder where the mystical "32 inch" draw came from.
Also, were medieval arrows really as heavy as they are often depicted? In the warbow world, we hear a lot about the "Quarter Pound Arrow", does anyone have any knowledge as to whether they really were this heavy?

[Ian.]

Apparently there is a reference to the famed 1/4lb arrow, never seen it myself, it could have been made and arrows would have been heavy but perhaps 1/4 is over the top.

The 32" reference came from modern archers who found that length comfortable to shoot, 30-31 is the average by a long way for the Mary Rose arrows.

Weight of the MR arrows is a question more based on practical experience and reproductions made, when the EWBS put together the livery arrow it was made to the same dimensions as the average shafts found, using the same wood, with a typical tudor arrow head. The arrow came out at 62 grams. What you find when shooting as bow over 140lb is that 62 grams is a very nice weight, perfect for distance and general shooting, just feels right.

[adb]

Some people can draw to 32", but I am not one of 'em. I find my most comfortable draw is 30".

As Ian so correctly stated, most of the Mary Rose arrows are 30" from the valley of the nock to the base of the head, and using replica materials, come in at around the 'livery' arrow weight used by the EWBS and others. As the medieval arms race heated up in its later  stages, I imagine some heavy arrows were used, but the arrows I saw at the Mary Rose Museum didn't look like 1/4#ers.

With a 100# warbow, drawn to 30" and shooting a 65 gram arrow, I get a really nice cast. 200+ yards is easily do-able.

[outcaste]

Hi,

Looking at the data from the Mary Rose, it suggests that the majority of arrows were constructed from Poplar (75%+), Birch (14%) and Alder (6%). With regards to the draw length, there appears to be two large peaks at just over 28ins and 30ins. Interestingly the Alder shafts appear to be the longest (beyond 30ins) as a rule (perhaps fire arrows?)

With regard to the weight of the Poplar shafts; these have been calculated with the addition of a type 16 or small bodkin to around 40.5g and 48.5g. Only the Birch comes in at slightly below 60g or 67g, depending on the head.

Hope this helps?

Alistair

[adb]

Thanks, Alistair... awesome info. Where did you source it?

[outcaste]

Hi,

All the info is drawn from the 'Weapons of Warre' . There is a massive amount of info on the arrows and the bows, plus anything else you would wish for in terms of Tudor arms and armoury.

If you take the MR average spec for a bobtailed poplar shaft (which is the most common), I think it would be the devils own work to get a 60g+ arrow out of it without a heavy head and or using the heartwood.

Alistair

[adb]

Hmmmm... I have those books and I've read everything in them on the bows, but I guess I must have skimmed the section on the arrows! I'll have to go back and re-read that part. Thanks!

[adb]

OK... I re-read the section in "Weapons of Warre" on the arrows from the Mary Rose, and I was surprised at how light in weight the arrow shafts actually were. Most seemed to be from 40 - 70 grams depending on shaft material, with birch some of the heaviest. I didn't see mention of any arrow shafts >80g. Where on earth did the 1/4# (113g) arrow come from? Is there mention of a 1/4# arrow used in the medieval or Tudor era anywhere? Or is this just the figment of someone's imagination?

[DarkSoul]

The EWBS Quarter Pound Arrow is a representation of a heavy military arrow used to penetrate armour. It is similar to those that were shot during the Hundred Years War.

Quarter-pound Arrow Weight: Minimum weight 1/4lb (113.4g) 

Nock: A horn reinforced self-nock (reinforcement approximately 2”). A slot depth of around ¼" is suggested.  The nock does not need to be further reinforced with bindings but this may be advisable for longevity and safety.

Shaft: Any indigenous hard wood is acceptable but the denser woods like oak, ash or birch may be needed to make the weight. Either a torpedo or bob-tailed shaft profile is acceptable.  Minimum shaft diameter at the shoulder 1/2” Minimum shaft diameter at the nock 3/8” Minimum Shaft length (bottom of nock to shoulder) 30 ½”

Fletchings: Fletchings must be cut in a triangular pattern with a trailing rear edge as nature intended.  The fletchings may be bound on but this is not required. Minimum length 7 3/8” Minimum height 5/8”

Head: A heavy hand forged plate-cutting bodkin must be used.

70 gram shaft,  30 gram arrowhead, 5 gram feathers, 5 gram bindings, 3 gram horn insert. Seems doable.

[adb]

Sorry... that was a 70g total arrow weight, assuming a type 7 or type 16 bodkin in place (with an average weight of 15g). My apologies for neglecting to include that! Also, 3 feathers weigh usually 1g or less, binding material weighs basically nothing (5g?... get real!), and the horn insert weighs roughly the same as the wood removed to insert it.

[DarkSoul]

I'm just guessing those weight, really. I've yet to put a full length feather on the scale. You might be right there.
What I'm trying to say, is that the quarterpound arrow is not based upon the 40-70 gram shaft weight of a Mary Rose wararrow. So the quarterpound arrow can have a heavier shaft to make the required weight. The bodkin doesn't need to be a type 7 or 16, but can be any hand forged bodkin. So it can be heavier too.

[Ian.]

In my original post I did say there is a reference to the 1/4lb arrow somewhere! but no one is every able to prove it; certainly not in the MR book. To make the weight  I have seen arrow heads up to about 36g, then Oak or Birch to get the weight. A rather pointless arrow in my opinion but some people like it.

[Forresterwoods]

I have been making heavy arrows as of late but I have never personally used an English warbow. Does anyone know if arrows should be light or heavy? I make the heavier arrows with spines of 60-140lbs...and weights of 500-850 grains. I was wondering if a heavy weight was as important as a heavy spine?
Kevin

[Forresterwoods]

I forgot to mention...the heavy arrows are made of hard rock maple, leopardwood, jatoba, and red balau...Kevin

[adb]

I'm just guessing those weight, really. I've yet to put a full length feather on the scale. You might be right there.
What I'm trying to say, is that the quarterpound arrow is not based upon the 40-70 gram shaft weight of a Mary Rose wararrow. So the quarterpound arrow can have a heavier shaft to make the required weight. The bodkin doesn't need to be a type 7 or 16, but can be any hand forged bodkin. So it can be heavier too.

I'm not asking how to make a 1/4# arrow... got that covered. I'm asking where (or if) there is any historical reference to its actual existence.