Author Topic: The merits of side vs belly tillering  (Read 2712 times)

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Offline sleek

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The merits of side vs belly tillering
« on: November 13, 2012, 05:42:06 pm »
I started a topic here http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,35863.0.html about an osage bow I am building and the topic sparked very interesting conversation about belly tillering, side tillering, and the effect on performance and set.

I dont know much about side tillering, I always thought that you decide how wide the bow will be based on how far it is to bend and how heavy in draw weight it is to be. I thought that width was a function of safety and you made the bow as wide as you can to reduce strain per inch of width to prevent set and breakage, but balanced that with mass to keep the efficiency up.

It seems though that it may be the width, if left to wide, can actually cause set by not having the thickness needed to take the compression strain. Please, anybody with an opinion, elaborate on yours and back it up as to why you think that way. I feel like I am missing something here and learning this could really send my bow making up to the next level...
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Offline George Tsoukalas

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Re: The merits of side vs belly tillering
« Reply #1 on: November 13, 2012, 06:00:54 pm »
Typically, a wide (over 2 in) pyramid bow is tillered side to side. Tiller should appear circular. Get the widest part doing work well cut down on set. I usually keep the limbs parallel to just past mid limb (elliptical tiller). If I notice the wood not responding to belly tillering I begin narrowing the stave. I guess you can get the limbs too thin on a pyramid bow. I mean you have to strike a happy medium. Bad tillering will cause inordinate set. I don't think that thin limbs will take set if the bend is good. Jawge
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If you ain't breakin' you ain't makin!

Offline RyanY

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Re: The merits of side vs belly tillering
« Reply #2 on: November 13, 2012, 06:30:48 pm »
As many of us know from Badger's Mass Principle, one of the most important factors in building a bow is its mass. To make well performing bows we want them to have the least amount of mass needed to do what is asked of the bow (generally speaking since moving mass is what should be considered). A wider thinner bow will have more mass than a narrow thicker bow. Therefore we want a bow to be as thick as possible without taking set. The thickness determines how far the limbs will bend where the width determines the force. For example, if a 25# and 50# bow had the same tiller, then the width of the 50# bow would have to be double that of the 25# bow and thickness of the two would be equal.

Side tillering comes at the point in tillering where we can tell that the limbs aren't stressed (taking set), meaning thickness is optimal, so we reduce mass AND weight, by removing wood from the sides instead of the belly.

I see no reason why a certain level of thickness is NEEDED for any bow but I do believe there is an optimal thickness, being as thick as possible without taking set.

Offline steve b.

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Re: The merits of side vs belly tillering
« Reply #3 on: November 13, 2012, 06:45:12 pm »
I agree with ryoon.  We do want the bow as narrow as possible without taking set for a given size, shape, and weight.  And you know that through bend testing samples or by carefully monitoring the bows response as sides are narrowed.

Offline toomanyknots

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Re: The merits of side vs belly tillering
« Reply #4 on: November 13, 2012, 08:14:49 pm »
I agree with ryoon. 

I second that. 
« Last Edit: November 13, 2012, 08:18:55 pm by toomanyknots »
"The way of heaven is like the bending of a bow-
 the upper part is pressed down,
 the lower part is raised up,
 the part that has too much is reduced,
 the part that has too little is increased."

- Tao Te Ching, 77, A new translation by Victor H. Mair

Offline bow101

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Re: The merits of side vs belly tillering
« Reply #5 on: November 14, 2012, 12:13:26 am »
What is considered normal set. Say maybe 1 to 1 1/2 on a 64 inch bow.?
So far my experience dictates that I have removed enough material on the belly to get proper tiller, or say tillering a little quicker than before without breaking it.
I'm learning, if the weight is a little down I just add some backing to bring 'er up.

Having said that I'am having better luck with belly tillering.
"The privilege of a lifetime is being who you are."  Joseph Campbell