Uncut with Ed Scott...interesting point on glue for sinew backing

[cuthalion]

Hey Everyone,

While watching all 8 parts of the uncut video of the interview with Ed Scott, I came across an interesting tidbit where he mentions that he does not use hide glue to sinew back his bows but instead uses wood glue. From doing a sinew project myself and reading up on different methods of sinew backing, it was obvious that powdered hide glue or "make it yourself hide glue" were the most effective ways of ensuring the sinew would not come off the bow.

I was wondering if anyone has any insight on using wood glue for sinew backing and their thoughts on this method.



<a http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YyZcjRFjL94&feature=relmfu a>

heres the link for the video and jump to about 2 minutes.

[aznboi3644]

My perspective.

Ed doesn't use hide glue.  But he reflexes his bows before applying sinew.  Most sinew backed wood bows I see are sinewed then pulled into reflex as it dries.

I'm sure the neutral plane is still shifted with the wood glue and sinew.  Seems like the sinew is still being stretched a good amount.  I've been thinking about using titebond with some sinew.

[PEARL DRUMS]

I use TB and it works great. No failures yet............knock on wood! Its very waterproof as well. TB is the king glue in my shop. I have 10 bottles of various glue around but my TB is always empty it seems?

[Lee Slikkers]

PD, do you use TBII or TBIII?

[PEARL DRUMS]

III on everything I do Lee. Sinew, backings, grips, wraps, skins and tips. Love the stuff.

[Lee Slikkers]

Cool, it's what I've used on all my lams and backings, rawhide, etc but not too many of my projects have made it to arrow flinging status so it's good to hear the endorsement.  You can't do and heat or steam corrections after it's been used though, correct?

[PEARL DRUMS]

I have nevere heated a bow with glue on it Lee, no idea what works there? My guess is heat aand TB dont like each other.

[Traxx]

I was sittin with Ed and Justin and Carolyn,at their booth,Years ago,when a guy came up to the booth and proceeded to shoot severall of Eds bows.He came back and told Ed,how they shot Great and he shure wanted to buy one of em.In the conversation,he proceeded to tell Ed how he was horrified,at some of these Yahoos who used TB glues to apply Sinew and how it couldnt possibly work well like hide glue.He said he allways used HG and his bows shot like Eds.After Ed told him that the bows he just shot were made with TB glues,he just walked away and i never saw him at the Expo again.I know of at least 2 well known bowyers,that were sceptics,before talking with Ed and now,they use TB glues as well.

[artcher1]

I can still feel the burning coals from the old PA board Traxx. How times has changed! Glad to see ol' Ed put folks on the straight and narrow...........Art

[Stiks-N-Strings]

Tite bond releases at around 120 degrees I believe but not 100% sure.

 Stiks

[Kegan]

The hide glue would be heavier than the wood glue. Given the same unbraced profile the TB bows shouldn't be slower, and might be faster. However, from everything I've read the hide glue helps stretch the sinew, which gives it that spring. Using TB the sinew would react more like rawhide. However, being such a durable backing, it should still enable the bow to be built with a lot of relfex and hold together. Of course, all of these backings have proven themsevles regardless of the glues used by many bowyers. So what would the harm be in experimenting?

I'm just musing to myself. I don't really know

[Marc St Louis]

Several years ago, not long after I started using TB3, I became curious on its possible usefulness in horn bows.  I decided to try gluing the horn strips on a horn bow I was working on with the glue.  The fit of horn to core was perfect, I used moderate pressure to clamp the horn and waited a suitable amount of time before tillering.  I had not reached brace height and the horn exploded from the limbs.  You could see from the remains where the glue had literally sheared.  TB3 definitely has it's limitations and they are not that high

I'm not saying that TB3 will not work with sinew but to say that it will work as well is a bit of a stretch.  Just because one man said that bows sinewed with TB3 shot as well as his hide glue bows is not saying much.  Maybe this guys bows were dogs, I don't know.  A true test would be with a chrono.  I know that I have chronoed some of my sinew backed bows to at least 185 FPS and more with 10 GPP arrows at a 28" draw.  If anyone would care to supply chrono speeds using bows sinewed with TB3 I would be more inclined to concede the point.  So far I have not seen anyone willing to provide any documentation on this and this debate has come up many times over the years.  Obviously the performance tests would have to be done with a 10 GPP arrow at a 28" draw.

Kegan.  You are assuming that wood glue is less dense than hide glue but I don't think it is.  A lump of TB3 is quite heavy and will sink in water and that makes it more than 1.0 SG.  Hide glue has a SG of 1.2

[sweeney3]

I've seen the videos and noticed that the glue he used was an off-white color.  Very likely to be TB2 or 3.  That would contribute to the water resistent nature of his bows.  As far as performance goes, I have shot THOUSANDS of arrows over three plus years out of my Owl bow, and have not taken any particular measures to ensure its wellfare.  I haven't abused it, but I haven't babied it either.  There was a three week period last summer in Southwest Oklahoma when it had to sit in my truck because I didn't have a good place to keep it indoors.  (Itenerant army housing.)  It has had no trouble, still shots as well as ever.  I certainly have no complaints about it.  If Mr. Scott says it works, it probably works.  Whatever the material/method is, he's got it figured out.

[Traxx]

Marc,
Why dont you make one,with TB glue n tell us whats up,instead of waitin on someone else to do it,if its that important to you?
As for the 1 guy sayin the TB glued bows,shot as well as his hideglue bows,not haveing any merit,ill say this.His bows are not Dogs by any means.He makes a pretty darn nice bow.In fact,ive seen him on this site,now n then.You may even know him.I used the story to detract from the whole stupid debate from even getting started,as like you say,its been beat to death allready.I refrained from mentioning the "Guys" name,as i dont see any point in causeing further embarrasement.I will add,as well,that ive never read a post by this Guy on any of these threads concerning TB glues and Sinew after that day.Nobody is sayin,that you cant use Hideglue anymore,or that it doesnt work well.What i am saying is,that TB glues work well too if a person wants to use it.Its been done and proven to work well.The End.

[mullet]

I've used both and the only difference I've seen in performance is,, none. On humid days I'll take a sinew backed bow glued with TB3 over a hide glued one. Over the years you don't have to keep adjusting the tiller because of sinew shrinkage. I've used hide glue when sinew backing a bow, then after it is FULLEY cured, put a film of TB3 over it to help seal  it.