Author Topic: Something is really bugging me  (Read 21781 times)

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Offline kiltedcelt

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Something is really bugging me
« on: May 10, 2010, 02:04:03 am »
I'll tell you right now if you're open minded continue to read on. If you're not open minded then you probably better stop reading now. You've been warned. What you read you may find offensive. I will start out by saying I'm not a hunter. I am a target shooter. With that being said don't think for a minute that I have anything against hunting. I do not. In fact I know hunters are some of the best stewards of the environment and proponents of conservation and sensible use of sustainable wildlife resources. Now with that being said I'll tell you right now I'm a zoologist, so what I'm about to write is not a bunch of PETA hype or some bogus junk like that. What really irks me is that I just read a post on another bow building forum that showed the results of what happens when humans trespass on the habitat of rattlesnakes. The rattlesnakes are the losers. I know a lot of you like to put rattlesnake skins on the backs of your bows so I'm going to give you some perspective on how and where those skins are acquired. If you haven't found that snake dead or killed it yourself, chances are you've bought it online. If you've bought it, it mostly likely was acquired by the seller in bulk from someone else. The bulk of rattlesnake skins available are harvested at rattlesnake roundups.

Rattlesnakes are caught for roundups usually by pouring or spraying gasoline into their burrows. The toxic fumes drive the snakes out where they are then captured and in many cases are held for weeks or even months without food or water while the "hunters" continue to collect more snakes for the upcoming roundup. At least one roundup I know of the "hunters" use irrigation pipe with large treble hooks to extract the snakes from their burrows. The "hunter" listens at the end of the pipe and if he hears movement he jerks the hook end around untill he's able to catch something on the hooks. Snakes caught in this manner are often so severly injured they are brought in to the roundups dead or have to be killed after being weighed and measured simply to put them out of their misery. On a side note, the gasoline used to acquire snakes pollutes the burrows so they can't be inhabited for sometimes years later and also poisons less hardy species that share burrows such as burrowing owls in the Southwest or in the Southeastern U.S. Gopher Tortoises and Indigo Snakes, both of which are endangered species.

So, now that the snakes have been acquired and have been deprived of water and starved at length, they're then hauled in to the roundups where they're dumped into pens which are sometimes so overcrowded that the snakes on the bottom are suffocated or crushed under the weight of the snakes above them. Some people will say roundups are beneficial because they remove harmful snakes and those snakes are milked at roundups to provide antivenom, so they do in fact serve some purpose. All b.s. For starters, rattlesnakes, particularly the larger species that are preyed upon for roundups - Western Diamondbacks, Eastern Diamondbacks and Timber rattlesnakes - all of these snakes are keystone species in the habitats they live in. Being a keystone species means that animal is IMPORTANT to the general health of the ecosystem they inhabit. Removing snakes from their habitats without any kind of bag limit or hunting season is irresponsible and unethical at best and downright dangerous and despicable at the worst. Furthermore, most roundups pay snake "hunters" by the weight of snakes they bring in. Thus, most of the snakes caught tend to be the largest which in the case of rattlesnakes translates to reproductive age females. Also, most snakes for roundups are acquired when they're still inhabiting dens "brumating" which is like hibernation in mammals. These snakes are often just a few weeks away from emerging from their burrows to search for mates and breed. Additionally, in most rattlesnake species the females may only breed once every two to three years. So, removing the largest adult females is detrimental to the long term health of the species as a whole and they are taken in what all wildlife biologists agree is an unsustainable manner.

Now as to the milking of snakes at roundups. Venom acquired at roundups is ABSOLUTELY WORTHLESS! There is no laboratory ANYWHERE that would buy venom collected at a roundup. It is collected in a non-sterie manner, is not preserved appropriately upon extraction, and in most cases multiple species may be milked into the same container making it completely worthless. Milking at roundups is nothing more than sensationalist entertainment of the lowest sort. Finally, the skins are acquired usually by decapitating the snakes after they've been weigh out and the hunters paid off. Decapitation as a method of euthansia in snakes is approved of by NO ONE. Just a little bit of trivia for you. Because of the unique nervous system and metabolism of snakes, a decapitated head will continue to live without a blood supply from the body, exhibiting pupilary response and signs of perception of surroundings for AS LONG AS ONE HALF HOUR! I don't know, maybe it's just me but I think that sounds just a little bit cruel. Oh yeah, and snake meat really doesn't taste that good. It's rubbery, and it has tons of little rib bones in it. Pretty much a waste of time from a culinary standpoint.

So, there you have it. The skins most of you buy are probably collected from snakes slaughtered at round ups. I'm not saying that's always the case but probably more than 98 percent of rattlesnake hides available from hide dealers are going to have come from roundups. Now, onto the incidents involving snakes that were killed at a recent 3D shoot. For starters let me remind you, you trespassed on their habitat. It was their home you came into. Rattlesnakes have a rattle for a reason. The rattle is to warn off predators and other animals that would seek to molest the snake. Venom, metabolically-speaking is a valuable resource. For the snake, venom is used to acquire prey. In fact a majority of venomous snake bites are considered "dry" in that little to no venom was injected. Just because a rattlesnake bites does not mean it will inject venom every time. A study that was performed on wild venomous snakes in the Southeastern U.S. determined that all of the venomous snakes encountered in the study tolerated being stepped on and even being moved or nudged by a foot without biting. Only when they were grasped with a facsimile hand/arm did they then bite in defense. The vast majority of all venomous snake bites in the U.S. involve males between the ages of 18 - 40 and involve alcohol and having physically handling the snake.

You are more likely to be bitten by a dog than a snake, or more likely to die in an automobile accident. Snakes, when give ample opportunity will not stand their ground but will try to escape into hiding. The snakes that were killed at the recent shoot did nothing other than have the misfortune of being at the wrong place at the wrong time. For exhibiting their natural behaviors of basking and trying to defend themselves they were summarily executed. Although I would never advocate anyone attempt to remove a venomous snake unless they know what they're doing, most snakes if given a wide berth will be a danger to no one. I would suggest in future leaving alone any snake that is come across during one of these events. Make sure that everyone knows where the snake was seen so that the area can be avoided. Leave the snake alone. Appreciate it as a part of the wild nature you're out there to enjoy. Appreciate it as a beautiful and supremely adapted predator and appreciate the place it holds in the ecosystem. And of course remember YOU are in IT'S habitat.

Finally, I'll leave you with one last thing to think about. Many of the people who frequent this forum and others like it are hunters. You all SHOULD know the necessity of hunting responsibly. Bag limits, size limits, age limits are all set for a reason. They're not set to tell you that you can only take only so much, to try to impede your enjoyment of the sport, they're set so that hunting can be performed in a sustainable manner, so that there will still be more animals to hunt next year. There are currently NO seasons for hunting rattlesnakes or any species of snake anywhere in the United States. In most states rattlesnakes do not even have any legal protections. Most of the time this is based on ignorance and predjudice. Many people fail to see the benefit of snakes in the ecosystem and the vital role they play as a predator, often of mammal species that if left unchecked can have their populations grow out of control. By indiscriminately killing any snake you see you're simply acting out of ignorance and contributing to a growing abuse of a wildlife resource. I'm not against snake skins on bows. I personally don't like it as I appreciate skins in their original locations, on the snakes. However, if rattlesnakes could be harvested in a sustainable manner with hunting seasons and bag limits backed up by legitimate well researched science, I would not oppose it. I said before that hunters are some of the best conservators of our natural resources. Just think about that the next time you think about putting skins on a bow or you think about killing a snake you perceive to be a threat. Are you being a good steward? Are you responsibly using the resource? Are you doing something you can be proud of now that you know a little bit more about these misunderstood animals?

Offline zenmonkeyman

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Re: Something is really bugging me
« Reply #1 on: May 10, 2010, 02:15:40 am »
Not at all offended, thanks for the info.  I haven't bought any snake skins, but if I'm ever tempted I'll think back to this.  You're far from the first to speak up in defense of snakes on this forum, many of the guys here either leave them in peace, or pick them up dead on the side of the road if they want skins.
If the ppl ever allow private banks to control their currency, 1st by inflation, then by deflation, the banks & corporations that will grow up around (these banks) will deprive the ppl of all property until their children wake up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered. Thomas Jefferson

Offline kiltedcelt

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Re: Something is really bugging me
« Reply #2 on: May 10, 2010, 02:22:11 am »
Well, this is something I've been wanting to write for quite some time. I just happened to see something that really pushed my buttons so to speak. I'll be the first to stand up and defend anyone's right to take a rattlesnake legally if there were to be actual established hunting seasons with bag limits, size limits, etc. I am not against the consumptive use of just about any kind of wildlife provided it is done in an ethical and sustainable manner. However, to wantonly destroy an animal is I think, unethical.

Offline El Destructo

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Re: Something is really bugging me
« Reply #3 on: May 10, 2010, 02:38:06 am »
I have been telling People here in Texas the same things for Years....Rattlers have their Place in the Ecosystem...and it is more important than the role that We play...Snakes are beneficial to the Environment...But now it has gotten to the Point that I barely see a Snake in the Canyons any more...they have about Wiped them Out...I use Snake Skins...but only Snake Skins that I acquire from Roadkill...or Snakes that Uninformed Snake Ignorant people have destroyed...I do not Buy Snake Skins....nor do I Hunt them ....I only Kill what I eat...and like You stated...there is nothing Special about Snake Meat at all....as for being Offended...not at all...more people need to realize this travesty...and do something to stop it...JMO
As a species we're fundamentally insane. Put more than two of us in a room, we pick sides and start dreaming up ways to kill one another.Why do you think we invented politics and religion.
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Offline NTD

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Re: Something is really bugging me
« Reply #4 on: May 10, 2010, 04:21:11 am »
Definitely haven't offended me.  I am truly suprised that these roundups still go on.  Arizona while certainly not perfect in it's legislation of non-game wildlife does have a YEARLY bag limit on their snakes.  4 species of crotalus are protected entirely and off limits and the other 9 are allowed to be taken live or dead between 2-4 a year depending on species.  There are restrictions on legal methods of take.  The biggest problem we have in AZ is commercial collectors but that has slowed drastically in recent years. 

I am a very devoted herpetculturist and like you prefer skins on their rightful owners.  But I do utilize the skins of roadkill and exotics who have died.  It far past the time that these events are shut down for good.  Good on you for attempting to bring some awareness to the problem.
Nate Danforth

Offline HoBow

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Re: Something is really bugging me
« Reply #5 on: May 10, 2010, 07:54:06 am »
Good info!  I always wondered about those roundups and how they worked. I'm too cheap to buy skins (I've used one set that were a roadkill trade) but now have another reason to not buy them ;)
Jeff Utley- Atlanta GA

Offline tombo

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Re: Something is really bugging me
« Reply #6 on: May 10, 2010, 08:16:30 am »
No offense taken at all Kilt. I'm no "tree-hugger" but I believe that all life has value and should be respected. I generally say a short prayer over the carcass of anything I kill. To "harvest" reptiles in such a way is mindless and soul-less. A lot of these snakes come from deep S.Texas, where many of the other predators have been killed off. Perhaps we should have a Field Mouse Round-up"?? Tom

Offline Marc St Louis

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Re: Something is really bugging me
« Reply #7 on: May 10, 2010, 08:45:25 am »
Informative post but I think it more appropriate in the Around The Campfire forum.

On a side note, I do disagree with your comment on humans trespassing on the Snake's habitat.  They no more own the land than we do, the only difference is that humans think they own the land
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Offline Pappy

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Re: Something is really bugging me
« Reply #8 on: May 10, 2010, 08:45:44 am »
I use a lot of skins,most come from road kill or the county road crew or when I am bushhogging,I sure don't go out looking for them ,but also hate to waste a beautiful snake that has been killed in some other way.  :) Like everything else they will probably stop the round up's in due time.
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Offline Timo

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Re: Something is really bugging me
« Reply #9 on: May 10, 2010, 09:21:12 am »
Very informative post. I ,like most here use roadkill mostly.I have a few locals that will kill snakes on sight,no matter what it is, I try to explain to them that they are as you say,part if the system, but it doesn't seem to change their minds much. They call me when they get whatever and I go pick them up.

I have a friend that goes to that roundup every year,I asked him alot of questions about it.He tells me that he tries to stay away from the main activities,not his cup of tea. Now I understand a bit more as to why! :(

 Mostly goes out ,himself and one other. They drive the roads searching for road crossers,catch them, measure ,record whatever he needs,and then lets them go. He does keep a few for his pens. He will keep them a year,then take them back the following year and release them back.Says he just likes snakes. Good way to keep the wife away he tells me..ha.

All animals have a place on this land,stewardship means much more than most people care to consider.

Offline dragonman

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Re: Something is really bugging me
« Reply #10 on: May 10, 2010, 09:55:16 am »
Thanks for posting this info. I've been considering ordering a snake skin for a bow, I suspected as much but ignored it. I defiately wont but one now. All life forms should be respected even plants and trees. Nothing should be killed unless it is absolutely nessessary.
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Offline Pat B

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Re: Something is really bugging me
« Reply #11 on: May 10, 2010, 11:23:05 am »
Thanks for your very informative post, Celt. Lots of good info that many folks probably never thought about.
Make the most of all that comes and the least of all that goes!    Pat Brennan  Brevard, NC

DCM4

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Re: Something is really bugging me
« Reply #12 on: May 10, 2010, 11:24:03 am »
I always figured the skins looked better on the snakes, but only because I enjoy the nature beauty of a wood or boo backed bow.  Good to hear those who do prefer skins do it in a responsible manner.  Not surprised.

Good post.  Thanks for writing.  Obvious you are a zoologist.  "Regular" people would have only written a couple of sentences.  LOL  Just kiddin.  You did us a real service.

Offline OldBow

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Re: Something is really bugging me
« Reply #13 on: May 10, 2010, 11:58:26 am »
I'm not offended. I am a retired biology teacher. I always preached that if you don't eat it...don't kill it. The chance of my killing any snake is zero.
When you're retired, every day is Saturday

Offline Badger

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Re: Something is really bugging me
« Reply #14 on: May 10, 2010, 12:02:16 pm »
  I have np problem with a bowyer or tanner harvesting snakes in a responsible manner.I have a big problem with roundups that just amount to slaughter. Rattlers can be aggressive if unknowingly cormered by kids or pets and don't really belong in backyards. We like them on the golf courses as they keep the rodents down. I say just like any other wildlife that humans use we need to be humane and responsible. Better tabs should be kept on thse animals so as to give them protection where needed. Steve