INDIAN STICK

[billy]

Great Job Blacktail!  That's a beauty.  I really like the paint design....very very cool.  I've been thinking of writing another article for PA about the CA bow, but I have one bow that I want to finish before I do.  I think it would be a great article.

I've come to the realization that with short bows like these, that 40-45 lbs is about the most poundage you want these bows to pull.  Any heavier than that and they become  stiff and uncomfortable to draw.  I prefer around 40- 42 lbs....that way they still give good speed but have some flexibility to them.  If they are short AND heavy in draw weight then they are less fun and comfortable to shoot.  Being so short puts them at a disadvantage as far as having a smooth draw anyway.   

[PeteC]

Very neat little bow,you did a good job and the paint job looks great. God Bless

[juniper junkie]

hey Marc,yes i can but my string at the time was coming undone from me messing with it...thanks guys some much...john

quit making excuses....and pull that thing back a little more!! I love the paint scheme, but I agree that more sinew would make it a snappier bow. you learned a lot on this one but you have been afraid to pull it back. ;)looking at your draw pic, I would think it could bend more in mid-limb as it seems to be bending alot in the handle. take what you learned and start another one... I know you have some more Yew lying around. congrats on a well done replica.

[Traxx]

I remember seeing this bow,so i must have posted my comments on another site.I have heard people many times talk about the Dissadvantages of these little bows,like has been mentioned on this thread.I think that this is true,when we shoot them the way most shoot a bow today.I wonder though if we took the time to learn to shoot them the way they were shot by those who designed them,if many of those disadvantages would be eliminated?I believe these early people had a method to their madness and knew what they were doing.I wonder,if there were these dissadvantages were present in their hands?

[Blacktail]

wow,you guys are great....yes,big daddy Dave...i am still trying to learn how to jerk this stick back. ..thanks Pete,i had alot of fun painting this..i wish i knew more about how to find pigment paint..traxx...i have learned that with shooting these little sticks that it is a learning lesson in it self..i really want to learn more about them...billy,thanks so much for chiming in...its good to hear that 40+ pounds is about it..at least i am half way there...i really hope you write anther article about the ca bows...PLEASE,PLEASE,PLEASE. ...the big thing for me is that alot of people make these west coast bows..BUT,no one really hunts with them.. ...in fact i can only think of 2..maybe you and Steve alley..so, why doesn't more people hunt with them...i think its lack of confidence in them..thanks john

[zeNBowyer]

So Traxx,
what is  it  about this  style  of bow  that  suppossedly  makes them less effective?

[Traxx]

Not less Effective,but Less efficient,in the hands of people who shoot them,with the more modern style of shooting a bow.Most today shoot with what i referr to as a modified english style.mediteranian hold on the string with a corner of a mouth type draw.These type bows stack severely at that long of a draw.The 3 fingered med hold,causes severe string pinch,which makes it harder for most to release cleanly,causeing more string oscillation and therefore greater paradox for the arrow to go through,causeing more chance of inconsistent flight and accuracy.Many state,that these short bows are more inconsistent,and touchy to shoot.they say the longer limbed bows are more foregiving and with a 3 fingered med type hold,i feel they are correct.Now,if we trained to use the pinch,augmented pinch or some variation of,would we have a cleaner release,eliminateing the problems that many have with these short,native type bows.I know of no early people,of the area that the style of bow shown are from,that used a 3 fingered med style draw.I cant believe that they couldnt have thought of it and maybe even gave it a try at some point.They used what they did because it was effective and efficient for their purpose.As billy mentioned,i have never seen an old original specimen,that i would guess whent over say 45 lbs.I dont think they needed more for their purposes,and have you ever tried to draw  a heavy bow useing a pinch variation draw?I have,and not to brag,but ive been told that pound for pound,i have about as strong a grip as they have seen.Its what i do for a liveing that makes me so.I cant draw much more than 40 lbs with that style.The way these early people used these type bows and the style in which these people hunted made a quick front of face snap shot,the most efficient.i believe a pinch type hold would be better suited to this style shooting as well.Another thing,that Billy mentioned in his thread about his trip to the Smithsonian.He noticed something that i also noticed,concerning the arrows.They are really kind of small diameter and dainty compared to what most use today.They didnt lead me to believe,they were shot from high poundage bows and therefore a pinch would work well.

[zeNBowyer]

That  makes  perfect  sense,
I've  always  thought that the  pinch  was a  very  efficient  draw  method,
but i  never  could  manage  it  at  my   draw weights,
sounds  like  this  design  of  bow would therefore  be
a  pretty  short  range (although  efficient) weapon,
thanx

[Blacktail]

o.k. Traxx,let me get your opinion on some thing..if they used a pinch for shooting..would there be way of anchoring......and how would they aim..the thing that blows my mind is that...when hunting they had to be really close to game(dug out pit blind or just a blind)and in war they where face to face with there enemy...john

[Traxx]

Zen,
Yes,they were predominately short range weapons,compared to say,the english longbow,but i guess it depends on a persons def as what short or long range is.The west coast natives usually hunted larger game with the bow,durring hunts that were tribally organized and many members were coordinated,by a hunt captain,or at least that is how it is translated in English.They were experienced older hunters with years of experience.that knew animals and their patterns well.If a person did their research,they would find that many of the elder native men had the English names with Captain in their name,such as Captain Jack,of the Modoc.That was a carry over from their title as a hunt Captain in the old days.Anyhow,they would drive the animals on trails that they used normally and took them to or by a series of blinds,containing archers.Another way the North eastern Cal Natives hunted Pronghorns was to Flag em in to range.My grandfather taught me this one many years ago,and ive proven it many times to skeptics.LOLIve seen it documented as being used by other nations as well.Ishi on the other hand,didnt have a very large able bodied tribe to conduct such a hunt,so he resorted to spot and stalk,or more accurately spot and call,to get his animals in close range.It was reported by Pope,that Ishi on severall occasions killed small game with a head shot at 30 yrds.Thats not what i would call short range,and it takes a better than average archer today,to be that proficient.
John,
It is said,that they Shot their short bows,instinctive,with no anchor point really.Pope stated that Ishi anchored the back of his hand to his chin.In the pics and short movie of him shooting,if it is an anchor point,it is severely brief.I think it was more of a draw check,than an anchor point.Interestingly,many of the old arrows that are self arrows rather than compound,still have a sinew wrap at a location on the arrow as a wrapped compound arrow would, at the junction of main shaft and foreshaft.What other reason could there have been for this,other than a draw check?I talked with a very old Maidu,when i was about 10 yrs old.He had hunted with a bow as a young man,with his father,who remembered life before white men and Firearms.He showed me,that they pushed the bow more than drawing the string.they set the nock and string hand at a predetermined place in front of their face that gave them the best sight down the arrow,and pushed with the bow.as it got to the draw they desired,or was marked by feel,they would release.Concerning war,it is documented in the Book,Destruction of the people,by Coyote doctor,that the Maidu actually conducted,organized warfare at times to settle disputes of different reasons.Often it was between different bands of the same people rather than between different nations.It was much like British warfare,where they stood on oposite sides of a flat or meadow at arrows range apart,shooting at each other.The participants were chosen as arrow dodgers as they called them,who could watch the flight of the arrow and dodge the arrow as it came toward them.I wouldnt thnink that would be too smart or possible at short range.LOL

[juniper junkie]

thanks for the info traxx (todd) is that correct? anyway...to answer blacktails question, I was planning to hunt with my short replica, and it had plenty of power and good arrow flight, I just couldnt get consistent with it. as was stated, I need to re-think my form and shooting style. Ishi was said to hold his bow so lightly that after the release the bow rotated forward in his hand after the shot. I have tried to shoot his style but feels awkward to me. but I would like to try to learn how by usiing lighter bows. my bow was 50#@18", I doubt I could use a pinch release with that kind of weight. I also would need to make different nocks on my arrows with a flare so I could grab with the thumb and fore finger. Steve Allely showed me that he anchors with the back of his thub joint at his chin or corner of mouth. this works well, but with the wider handle area, spine is more critical, I belive that is one reason for the horizontal style where you look over the arrow and spine affects up and down rather than side to side. now I feel compelled to start on another short replica.. .thanks alot John..just when I was getting all caught up on my projects.

[Traxx]

Yeah Dave,it is Todd.How ya been?
Interesting to note,that most of the westie arrows Ive seen did not have flared nocks on them either.{I referr to the west coast people as westies} its easier to say n type.LOLMany of the old ones i have seen, had very shallow nock grooves also.Just a v cut actually.
Ya know,i dont believe ive seen a pic posted of your Westie replicas on here,have i?Just a little FYI for you members,Juniper Junkie makes a  pretty fine example of this style bow,himself.Pretty handy Primitive arrow maker too.

[Traxx]

Oh and also,
When Ishi shot the bow,not only did it rotate foreward,but it rotated in his bowhand,so that in followthrough the bow ended up Spinning in his hand and the string ending up. out in front of him I have no freakin idea how he did this.I cant do it!!LOL

[Traxx]

He dropped his bowarm pretty badly too.This is considered poor shooting form by todays standard,but apparently Ishi didnt get that Memo.Seemed to work for him fairly well for his application.LOL

[Keenan]

Real good info Traxx. That info supports allot that I have learned about Native use of the weapons as well. One other thing to consider, is that the methods of hunting used then, were for pure survival and for the tribe and not for sport.  Often they would utilize the environment and area to their advantage. In this local area they used the natural funnels and pinch points in the lava flows to coral the animals for concentration kills at close range. Others areas Buffalo jumps and natural drainages were also used. Even in there fishing,  traps corals and other methods assisted in the actual taking of game.