Question regarding arrow rest and sight window, and Hello!

[Orkraider]

I'm in the process of making my second bow. The first one broke, which really bummed me out, lol.   I'm making a 6 foot red oak American flat bow.  I found a lot of helpful information online about the overall dimensions, roughing out the shape, and tillering, but I haven't come across any detailed info on cutting an arrow rest or shelf.

When I finished making my first bow, of the same type and dimensions as the second one, I went out and shot for a bit.   I was having a really hard time, the arrows were going everywhere but where I wanted them too.  I decided to cut an arrow shelf, even though I was really nervous, and thought it might ruin my bow.  It worked out nicely, the bow was a lot easier to shoot, and just having the arrows a little closer to center made a huge difference.

I did notice, however, that it was a bit harder for me to see the arrow and line up my shot. I suspect I didn't have enough wood cut out above the arrow shelf, and my view was blocked.

Does anyone have any suggestions regarding 2 things:  1) how far in can I get away with cutting an arrow shelf, that is, how close to center before I have to worry about it breaking through the handle, and 2) How much wood should be removed above the shelf so that I can get a decent sight picture

I started with a board 1.5" by .75" by 72", and have shaped it to 5/8 wide at the tips, and 1/2" thick.  I"m shooting for 60# at 30".

The first bow I made was the same, except I went for 50", and it was a hair thinner. It broke due to a hinge that I didn't notice until pretty late in the tillering process. I'm taking this one a lot slower =)

Thanks in advance for any ideas or suggestions. I've been reading a lot of posts on here, and it looks like exactly the kind of place I've been looking for.

[JustAim]

Does the bow have a glued on handle? Or is it a bend through the handle bow? Does the string lay down the center of the handle? The bows that l have cut arrow rests into all have thick handles. l make sure the cut is only into the handle and fade, not into the limb its self and cut to the center of the bow or just off center. While aiming, l've trained myself to not look at the arrow or the bow for that matter and just focus on the target. One thing to help you out for better aiming is to shoot in the dark so you cant see the bow or the arrow at all....use a small flashlight and shine it on the spot you wanna hit on the target. lt works, trust me. 

[Orkraider]

It has a glued on handle. same width, 3/4 " think and about 6 inches long. Once I'm done tillering, I'll shape the handle, and get it all nice and rounded and pretty. It won't be bending through the handle, and the string runs exactly down the center. I plan on making the handle part one inch wide for the 4 inches or so that my hand will actually be hitting. That's what I did with the first one, and it felt really good to hold.  On the first bow, it was about 1 1/8" wide at the point I cut the shelf, and it looks like I cut in about 1/2". 

From what your saying, it sounds like I wouldn't want to remove any wood past the handle, and make sure I don't get in to the limb at all.

[Kegan]

Do you shoot fiberglass recurves/longbows? Well, I have some good news- you can make your own three piece take down with the very same style handle !

Marc St. Louis did an article a year or so ago about using a broken bow- the limbs- and bolting them to a shaped riser he made in a 3 piece take down style. This way, you could make your desired handle, and tiller differernt limbs on it as you make heavier bows later.

If you'd like I can find the back issue it was in?

[Pat B]

Are you using properly spined arrows for the bow that you made or just some you had laying around?  Shelf or no shelf doesn't matter if you are shooting correctly spined arrows. By cutting in the shelf like you did it lessened the amount of paradox the arrow needed on release but I would venture that they were still not properly spined for your bow. A bow, no matter if it is a $1500 beyond center cut, glass masterpiece or a stick with a string attached to each end is inherently accurate. It's job is to propel an arrow and either will do that! The spine of the arrow determines which bow to use and not the other way around.
  I shoot instinctively so I don't pay any attention to my arrow on the bow. I look at what I want to hit and let my brain do the other work of getting the arrow there. I know there are other methods of shooting traditionally but for me they are too confusing. I let my subconscious mind handle that part of shooting an arrow.
   The way I originally learned to make a wood bow allowed for a cut out handle...
with a 4" handle the center line was laid out with 3/4" on the shelf side and 1/2" on the other. Using a 2" long fade out, draw a line from the top of the handle at the center line to the edge of the stave at the end of the fade. This will give you a 1/4" shelf to work with. I believe by cutting out the "window" you are adding a weak point to an area that gets the most stress, the fades. If you instead make a smooth, even indentation for your handle and add an arrow rest of wood, leather, bone, etc you have a safer option with the same results. The arrow rest is only in use until you release the arrow. At that point archers paradox takes over and the arrow doesn't touch the bow...with a properly tuned(spined) arrow.

[Orkraider]

Pat, as far as are the arrows spined correctly, I will say, probably not, lol.   My arrows are 5/8 " poplar , self notched, and no real heads yet. I've been using upholstery tacks to protect the ends until I can figure out the best way to make heads that are the right weight.

I read your reply, and did some searches on spine, and tuning arrows. I never realized how much of an effect the weight of the head would have on spine.

I think I"m going to do quite a bit of experimenting before I cut a shelf in this second bow.

Kegan, with the exception of 1 hour in 6th grade gym class many moons ago, I've never shot before I finished the first bow.  I'm not too interested in making a take down bow, for now I want to focus on a big old one piece and at least get the basics of that down.

I don't think the broken bow will be good for anything other than a decoration, it didn't break in the handle, but rather about a foot in from the tip on one limb.   This was due to me catching a hinge too late while rushing tillering. I got all impatient. Not on the second one tho, going much slower.

Thanks for the replies, this is helping a lot! =)

[Pat B]

First thing...a 5/8" dowel is way to thick for an arrow for the bow you are building. 3/8" or 5/16" would be more appropriate.
  When checking the spine of a wood arrow the standard is to start off with a shaft that is 28" long before the point and suspend it from  2 uprights placed 26" apart. You measure the deflection with a 2# weight hanging from the center to get your spine(with the use of a conversion table). This is the effective spine with a 125 gr point attached to the arrow. Anything over or under the 28" arrow will subtract or add 5# per inch and any head weight over or under 125gr will decrease or add to the spine of the arrow.(I'm not sure of what this value is).
  There is a lot more to building proper arrows than it is to building a wood bow but without the proper arrow, no bow will shoot well.

[Orkraider]

ah, I'm sorry, I'm afraid I mispoke. The first batch of arrows I made were indeed 5/8", and they sucked, lol. After that, I made a dozen out of 5/16" poplar, cut to the right length, (the first batch were a yard long), and fletched with store bought vanes rather than the junk I used on the first ones.  Simply using arrows that were the right weight and length made a big difference.. I'm realizing now that I changed 2 variables at once, cutting in the shelf, and using lighter, shorter, and more flexible arrows.

The info you gave regarding measuring spine is going to be really handy, that's something I'm going to work on as I wait for glue to dry.

Thanks again!

[Pat B]

If the store bought vanes you used were the plastic type, that will give you bad flight characteristics because the vanes are too stiff and will contact the bow on release. Try feathers.

[aaron]

back to your original question about cutting in a shelf- my experience is that shelves endanger a bow- even on a rigid handle, they can cause flexibility and breakage right at the shelf, and even if they don't do that, a shelf is a bunch of exposed end grain which will want to check or crack duue to how end grain expands and contracts as it gains or looses moisture...so i wouldnt cut a shelf at all. narrow the handle to where you want it and build a shelf out of leather.
The others advice on arrows is the best way to tackle your problem of inconsistent shooting. get your arrows spined, and heads matched, use feathers, and your handle width won't cause you any problems.

[Orkraider]

so much good advice. =)

I'm going to be working on this for a while today, and I'm really excited to get back to it after all the help I've gotten on here.

Thanks so much all =)

[Pat B]

I always wait until the very end before I shape the handle or the tips. You don't need either done before or while tillering and the full size handle area gives you a place to grip the bow with your vice plus you can make minor adjustments by moving the handle and/or one tips over to get better string alignment. Concentrate on getting your limbs bending evenly and together then work on getting it down to your desired weight. After the bow is tillered you can concentrate on shaping your tips and handle area as you wish.

[George Tsoukalas]

Forget about cutting in shelves. They  complicate an already complicated activity for the beginner. Just glue on a leather shelf. I actually don't recommend beginners glue on handles. Just let the handle  bend. 1.25 in wide out to midlimb will get you 45-50 # if tillered well and 1.5 in wide will get you 50-55#. Much easier to tiller for the beginner. Jawge

[adb]

I agree with George. Forget about cutting in an arrow self. Make some bendy handle bows with external arrow rests, and then get fancy later. I make very few bows with a cut in self. If you're careful to match your arrow spine, it's totally unnecessary.

[Orkraider]

Hi all!

After a Huge pause, while I dealt the work stuff and the arctic conditions of a minnesota winter, I finally got back to working on my new bow.

Right now, after having shot maybe 12 arrows with it, it's pulling at just over 70#, which is right where I wanted it.

After a lot of thought, and reading all the comments from before, I decided to skip cutting in an arrow shelf.

I have to say, I'm very glad I decided to do without.

The new bow is a beast, and I love it!

Now, I have a long ways to go as far as tuning it, i.e. putting the nock on the right spot on the string, and figuring out exactly how to make my arrows.

After a bit of looking around, based on my draw weight of between 70 -75 pounds, and a draw length of 31 inches, a lot of the web sites I've looked at that sell arrows suggest adding 5 pounds of spine for each inch of draw over 28. This would put me at about 90#, if I read that right; That also makes it look to me like I should move from 5/16" shafts back up to 3/8 ".

Now, I know there's a heck of a lot that goes into making the arrows, I really do; but here's my question.

Right now, the new bow is shooting the arrows dead straight, no waffling side to side, and hitting right where I'm aiming, at least as far as the horizontal axis goes.

However, they are consistently going quite a bit higher over my aiming point. I've read that one thing I can do is adjust the placement of my nock on the string; what I'm wondering is, if I shoot a heavier arrow, will that help fix things?

Thanks again for all the previous comments from 6 months back, and I can't wait to spend more time on here now that I'm back into bowyering and fletching.