Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Kegan on October 09, 2008, 07:57:24 pm
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With spine being amtched to the bow in every case, would an arrow that has to go through "less" (meaning that the arrow resting on the handle at brace is only slightly out more than an arrow at full draw) be me easier to shoot at longer range since this removes one variable (the flexing of the arrow) from play? Or, perhaps, the less it has to paradox, the less magnified flaws and flinches in form are?
Seems like the reason even the lighter fibeglass recurves seem so simple to shoot at long range is that they're center shot. They're short, don't weight much, but still are easier to shoot than some wide handled longbows that are as tall as the archer.
And, could one file in an arrow pass (like a shelf... without the shelf) into a narrow bow, like an ELB?
This has been really bugging me for a few days, and any help/opnions would be very helpful :(.
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As far as I know, an arrow flexes and bends and vibrates even with center shot bows. The biggest advantage to a center shot is the ability to shoot arrows of various spines. You don't have to match the arrow to the bow, in other words. I don't think it helps with flinching or other shooting flaws, though.
You can cut an arrow shelf in a narrow bow as long as the handle is deep enough to prevent the bow from braking in that spot..
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I don't think so. I don't think it matters at all. In fact, the opposite is true. It is the very close distances that determine how well the bow it tuned. That is distances before the paradox has finished. Jawge
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Kegan, I do shoot a close to center shot bow more consistently that say a wide bend through the handle type bow. I think they are more forgiving of arrow spine as well as your release. This is why most of the bows I make are cut to near center with a shelf. I am a more of a hunter who appreciates hand made natural material weapons than a "primitive archer." Accuracy is more important to me than have having my bow look 100% primitive.
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Like Jawge said.
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accuracy is not effected by the width of a grip . the width of the grip will effect the archer. ive shot wide grip bows since i first started in archery and have to adjust when i shoot glass bows. i have a difficult time with glass recurves. as for spine even wide bows will shoot a large variation of arrow spine. i only shoot primitive shafting though and i believe it is the only way to shoot a selfbow. typical parrelel shafting is less forgiving of spine then the shoots and splits i use as arrows because of the natural weight forward that has grown into the shaft. a set of boo arrows i have for instance range in spine from 45lbs to 75 lbs. all shoot straight and will hit within 4" of each other at 30 yards , that is of course as long as i do my job. spine is also less important when your form is dead on. back tension effects accuracy more than a slight variation in spine. peace
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accuracy is not effected by the width of a grip . the width of the grip will effect the archer. ive shot wide grip bows since i first started in archery and have to adjust when i shoot glass bows. i have a difficult time with glass recurves. as for spine even wide bows will shoot a large variation of arrow spine. i only shoot primitive shafting though and i believe it is the only way to shoot a selfbow. typical parrelel shafting is less forgiving of spine then the shoots and splits i use as arrows because of the natural weight forward that has grown into the shaft. a set of boo arrows i have for instance range in spine from 45lbs to 75 lbs. all shoot straight and will hit within 4" of each other at 30 yards , that is of course as long as i do my job. spine is also less important when your form is dead on. back tension effects accuracy more than a slight variation in spine. peace
Thanks everyone. And Jamie, I was hoping you'd chime in :). I've wondered if you'd spined your arrows to make them consistent or not, and such. I've matched my arrows to the bow (sort of), and slightly to each other. I'm glad to hear that I don't need to adjust the weapon I have, but just work on form. Also, would tapering and footing help the dowels I use with spine?
Jawge and Bob- what should I look for- straight in the target, hit where I aimed, or what?
Thanks eveyrone again. I was completely lost. Really helped me out :).
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Keegan, a properly tuned arrow will go where you are looking regardless of handle width. Some of the handles on my board bows are as wide as 1.5 inches. Point the arrow to the target and you should see nothing but fletch. See Selfbow Care and Tuning. Jawge
http://georgeandjoni.home.comcast.net/~georgeandjoni/
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Thank you Jawge. I've got lots of spare shafts, and making a "tuning batch" shouldn't take too much trouble I don't believe.
So, I should shoot them at close range (how close?), and obseve which flies straight into the target- correct?
I'm glad to hear wide handles are alright. I'm starting to get worried about how narrow my ELB's are seeming to get, and I don't like the possibility of twist.
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Get back far enough so you can watch the flight say 15-20 yards, Keegan. This morning's post was pretty confusing. I'm just not a morning person. What I was trying to say is a bowhunter really needs a well tuned arrow for close range hunting. If the arrow is off in spine that is when you'll really notice it. I never really had a problem with wide handles. Jamie's point is good in that the shooter may be bothered by them. Anyway, have fun. Jawge
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yeah kegan tapering and or footing will effect how well the arrows fly. nothing better than a natural taper though. only problem with bareshafting is it wont tell you anything if you dont use a clean loose. i bareshaft arrows but make sure your loose is tight. peace
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Wide handle or center shot riser, a well tuned arrow will theoretically be as accurate from either one. The center shot bow will be more forgiving of a less than perfect release, short draw, etc. IMO.
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yeah kegan tapering and or footing will effect how well the arrows fly. nothing better than a natural taper though. only problem with bareshafting is it wont tell you anything if you dont use a clean loose. i bareshaft arrows but make sure your loose is tight. peace
I've tried bareshaft tuning with little success. Even at two yards the arrows slam sideways. I dont think I'm a good enough shot to pull it off or soemthing.
Jawge- ahh, that makes mroe sense :). My close range accuracy is seemingly fine, my groups at 20 yards only slightly larger than my hand on my better days. It's at the longer distances that I have trouble with (at least on the shaded range- which is more like hunting). I defiantely think it's my form though. I got Hitting 'em Like Howard Hill, and saw several points i my form that I could improve upon :). I think I'll make a lighter bow and set about practicing form more seriously after season.
I also recently tried a centershot fiberglass recurve. Not a single shot hit where I wanted. I guess it had been some time since I actually shot one :D.
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I've tried bareshaft tuning with little success. Even at two yards the arrows slam sideways.
Which way sideways? Do the nock end of the arrows slam toward the left or right? If you release the arrow with your right hand (that is, a right hand shooter) and the nock end of the arrows are slamming to the right, your arrow spine is too stiff. If the arrows are slanted all over the place, then you are either shooting arrows of very different spines or your form is off.....or both.
Are you hearing a louder than normal slapping sound on the bow as you release the arrows? (arrows too stiff) Are you gripping the bow too tight? There are a lot of things that can cause an arrow to leave the bow in a "crazy" way. Shooting at a tartget that is further away allows the arrow to recover after the release, but it will not tell you much about how well the arrow is matched to the bow.
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I can't believe I am advising Kegan! But well, here's my experience. I've tried bare-shaft tuning in all sorts of ways, every week or so this year and I have paper tuned too but now I believe I have found the best method. You want to find the point zero, that is of course the range where the arrow goes at the spot you aim, as in gap-shooting setup. Two yards is way too close, still in paradox and no time for any small form problems or setup errors to be corrected (or magnified) by the shaft flying. This also gives you plenty of time to watch the arrow and over a few shots with one shaft you will get an idea of average behaviour allowing for the odd pull or drop or eye tiredness etc.
Bare-shafting is NOT the same as a fletched arrow to shoot, aim, look at or fly, but it does work. I am sure you know the nock left or nock right rules already but it is not the most important thing at first. I keep shooting the same bare shaft until I get an true idea of its performance, taking off a 1/4 inch or less at a time until the flight is smooth through the air, no wobble or vibration. Only then do I fine tune for stiff/weak and that will generally be just a small cut or two more at this point. I have smooth flying arrows that are well out in measured spine but only took a little chopping to get to fly nock straight and eye true. I don't know why this is, I reckon however that spine can only be ONE of the necessary measures of a shaft, perhaps grain flow or twist may make a difference in how it responds to shooting stresses.
I find very little difference in using either a longbow (ELB) or a deeper cut recurve (Chekmate Longhorn) in this way, just a different range and more forgiveness in the Longhorn. The arrows I put to one side are many, ones that want to go shorter or much longer than draw length, it is pointless getting a good arrow that needs a change in form! So I put to one side many arrows - as why get a tuned arrow if it necessitates a different length? You eye and body automatically get to expect a draw 'til the head touches your finger or some such. So I mark each shaft at the 29" point (my draw) with a fine groove and that is where I draw to, it allows a bit more length in some so as to not waste so many shafts.
I cannot understand why people bare-tune one arrow shaft of a set at a particular weight and spine, then cut them all the same - this is wood, not alloy! They are not bullets! Even if you are tuning from weight and spine matched sets, then fine-tuning with bare-shafting for flight, then only one or two in a dozen is going to be the same at the correct length and you need length for form.
Thus I only get two or three really good arrows from a dozen, but they are the only ones I use. We are either target shooting and want good accuracy and consistency, or hunting and want REALLY good accuracy and consistency. Either way, we want only one or two arrows at a time unless in competition when we would go the extra mile to get a perfect set of a dozen.
I guess I am saying that bare tuning and matching are looking for the needle in the haystack if you want the same spine, weight, and flight in a bunch of shafts CUT TO THE SAME LENGTH. In the end I chose to carry on with it because it gives me a few shafts I can be sure of and that correct my form, instead of chasing incomprehensibles all day. These good arrows actually fly well, with little correction, in bows of 15# difference and different construction. So if they are off target, it is me, and the setup, not the arrow. I hope that long ramble made sense!
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jackcrafty- they always slammed hard to the right, then flew off into space :o! I lost about ten arrow shafts that way, three were lost into the field, seven broke off of trees.
jape- thanks for the advice! I had to read it over a few times to get it all, but it sure helps. Thank you :).
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Kegan, your shafts are TOO STIFF!
Jape's advice is good, but only if you're starting with weak shafts....and only if you are starting with weak shafts on purpose. As you cut a shaft shorter, you are making it stiffer. If you cut your stiff shafts shorter, you're only making your problem worse.
Shoot weaker shafts (smaller and smaller diameters) until you find one that shoots straight at close range. Then copy that shaft. Then shoot the copies. Then pick the best ones. Then you can fine tune by cutting, adding heavy tips, etc.
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Kegan, your shafts are TOO STIFF!
Isn't that the truth :P! I spined the shafts before hand, and they were upwards of over 100#. I slowly scraped and tested and scraped and retested until they came out at 60-65# for my 76# ELB. So I made a set of them and they've been flying fine for me (with 65-70 for broadheads). However, flinching and dropping my hand cause me to shoot some erratic groups at times.
Hence my wondering if it were the bow handle. Then I learned my form "needed some improvements" ;D.
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Kegan, your shafts are TOO STIFF!
Yup, that is what I meant, ::)! I just go on a bit ...
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When I started to shoot at the medival week in visby, I was told a wooden bow is to slow to be able to win.
Then a center shot wooden bow won.... a new truth emerged...
A non center shot bow, without a shelf is to difficult to shoot, makes it impossible to win....
A couple of years later I won with my english longbow, wide handle and all...
About the arrows, if you have the possibility to go meet a good fletcher and try some different arrows, you will probably find a set that works fine. I use this shortcut a lot.