Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: lost arrow on October 07, 2008, 05:39:42 pm
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does anyone know were to buy knox glue?
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you can find it in the canning aisle in most grocery stores.. It's called knox gelatin..
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It is in a orange and white box.
Be sure to get the unflavored / no sugar added type.
It will make very strong glue.
David
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The unflavored gelatin is the highest food grade hide glue...colorless, odorless, flavorless.
Can you imagine floating your business plan past a small business loan officer..."Yeah, I wanna take hide glue, add sugar and artificial color and flavor, then sell it to housewives to feed their kids." Jay ee el el oh!
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oderless and flavorless HA!!!! sniff and taste it when it gets hot and see for yourself :D :D
Zander
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Yeah, it's odorless when it's cool, but when you start heating it up in the double boiler, it smells like you're boiling a billy goat........
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Jello smells good ;D And you can take your pick on colors.
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mmm..................
stinks how jello is half ground animal skin though.......
Zander
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so its basicley jello i had know idea
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OH NO! its not jello!!! its just in jello... ;)
its what gives jello its gel.....-o
Zander
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how do you make glue from the nox gellatin???
and what purpose is the glue used for ????
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put knox in metal bowl w/ water and heat until consistency of syrup or a little thinner....used for applying sinew to bows, attaching sinew to arrows...and tons of misc. stuff.
its 100% pure refined and filtered hide glue making it the strongest hide glue(from what I've heard and also my own experiences as well, I am no expert)
Zander
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Yes, knox gellatin from the grocery store - works very well for sinew and I'm sure a hundred other things from my experience :).
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Gluing rawhide, snake skins, wood backings
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when backing a primitive bow... can you use leather... i mean not raw hide... but leather lick soft leather... ther is a store in fort worth about 40 min from my home and it sells all kinds of leather... its called tandy leather... and i know sometime they have a scrap bend that sells all the scrapes for about 10 bucks a pound... and i have seen sometime long strips of soft leather in that ben... but im talking about soft died leather like they would probably use for a coach or coat or something.... i didnt know if that would work as a backing??? cause i know rawhide is really hard isnt it... and sinew or at least the pics ive seen of it from suppliers looks to be tuff and dried out as well... im sure they have both sinew and rawhide in that store "Tandy Leather" becuase they have all kinds of leather there but i think some of it is expensive stuff... i have only been there a handfull of times but i always shop out of there scrape ben... i was only grabing scrapes to make sheaths for the knives i was forging a couple of yrs back... oh i also made a quiver about 4-5 yrs ago.. still got the thing... i put it togather out at the dear lease.. one night just happened to take the scrapes with me cuase i was trying to finish a sheat for a knife for my cousin that wanted to use the knife on the hunt...
sorry, i know i get off topic alot...hehehe...
but yea i was thinking of maybe trying to use some of that soft leather for a backing one day... would this nox glue work for that... or is the leather im speaking of not good for baking a bow?????
is nox glue better than titebond III ??????
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I would stick to the Knox gelatin and rawhide for the backing. If those leather strips are wide and thin enough, you could sew it up and make a bowsock from it. Knox and regular homemade hide glue are great for glue ups and attaching backings. A lot of the "Old School" woodworkers that I know use hide glue when making furnature because it is so strong.
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Just remember with hide glue, sinew, rawhide backings, and snake skins to NOT leave the bow where a dog can get at it. There isn't any detectable odor to us but dog's noses are something else! I can only imagine a dog's delight in gaining access to a newly sinewed bow..."Oh, Master loves me so much he made a special treat from my two favorite things, a stick AND sinew!" chomp chomp chomp
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the glues are just different. titebond is a synthetic glue that is v. strong, but if you want to avoid modern technological stuff in an archery set hide glue is still very strong and all natural. i dont think tandy leather carries sinew-they will have artificial sinew in the arts and crafts section though-but then i havent been to your tandy leather either. it would just surprise me if they have it-but it doesnt hurt to ask. SOM
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Just bought a bunch of unflavored knox gelatin to try as glue. I've heard from a reliable source that food grade gelatin is not very consistent (from one batch to the next) in terms of strength, but we're not building rocking chairs or wagon wheels here. So I'm going to give it a try. I'm sure it works fine for making arrows.....so I'm going to try backing a short bow using knox and deer sinew and put it through the ringer. I"ll let you guys know how it works.
I think hide glue and fish glue are actually cheaper than knox gelatin.....maybe there's a generic or lower-price brand out there?
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Hide glue is much stronger than TB. It is the strongest glue.
Patrick, most people assume that Knox is stronger because it is "pure." If you spend a lot of time reading up on hide glue and the different weights you will discover that there are lots of things that effect strength such as cooking time. I don't know how long they cook Knox or how hot, but I'm sure that to get it sterile it gets hotter than the recommended max temperature of hide glue which weakens it. I don't really think it is an issue though since both are stronger than PVA glues. I have used both and they are both up to the task. Justin
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Justin, have you tried mixing hide glue with anything in order to make it more flexible (other than sinew)? Glycerin works (but it keeps the glue tacky as well as flexible).....maybe there's something else? I'm thinking that maybe there's a way to back a bow with just a hide glue mixture. It would save a lot of time...especially on kid's bows.
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I'm sure it works fine for making arrows.....so I'm going to try backing a short bow using knox and deer sinew and put it through the ringer. I"ll let you guys know how it works.
I've sinewed three bows with Knox, worked great.
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I've sinewed three bows with Knox, worked great.
Hillbilly, Care to elaborate? ;D
Did it work better than hide glue? Did you thin down the knox? How thin? Did you soak the sinew in the knox? Or just dip the sinew in the knox? Yada yada yada...... ;D
Maybe there's a secret ingredient to making knox as strong as hide glue? Would it have anything to do with adding critter poop? >:D
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My wife just learned to ask what I have been doing before she gives me a kiss good-bye. I was wrapping some fletches and had just put a pinch of knox in my mouth to go with the sinew in there swimming around. She planted one on me and said, "What have you been eating, your lips are sticky?" I grinned and said "Lips, buttholes and hide." She was not happy at all. ;D ;D ;D
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:D
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I mix the powdered Knox with just a little water to get the consistency of warm syrup or so soak my sinew in warm water then ring the water out with my fingers and put it in the warm knox for just a min take it out and use my fingers to get off the extra glue and apply it to the bow..Ive done 10 or so bows this way with no problems..
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Thanks David...wow...10 bows. Is there a reason you used knox instead of hide glue? Personally, I stopped using hide glue because I had trouble dealing with the short open time.
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Patrick, Knox is hide glue, and from most accounts, as strong or even stronger than most hide glues. Tim Baker did a strength test of glues, and rated Knox above regular hide glue, TB, Urac, and all other glues tested except two-ton epoxy. I just mixed it like thin syrup, heated it in a double boiler and dipped the sinew in a bundle at a time, squeezed the excess glue off with my fingers, and stuck it on the (sized) bow.
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I used hide glue but for most all aplications knox is works just fine and you can get it any where! Knox is hide glue just at the grocery store..lol.. Not as primative as boiling down your own but just as efective..
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I have sinewed some 60+bows with Knox. Its all I use and it works great. I have used hide glue, tb2, tb3 and by far prefer knox to all of them.
Steve
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Hmmmm....I thought food grade gelatin was made from tissue other than hide....hooves, bone, cartilage, membrane, sinew, etc. I thought hides were not used in the process of making gelatin because they are worth more if sold for other purposes (leather, for example).
When I buy hide glue, I make sure it's made from hides (or skins). Fish glue is made from fish skins, rabbit skin glue is made from, well, rabbit skin, and hide glue is made from hides (cows, pigs, goats, etc.). The skin provides the best basis for glue, right? I've been under the impression that "impurities" such as bone will weaken the glue. Maybe not.
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I cant say. I can only tell you it works and have bows in plenty that shows it. It is in my opion the BEST glue for sinewing a bow.
Steve
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In the TBB Tim baker rates Knox just under two ton epoxy and quite a bit higher then hide glue:
Hide Glue: 38#
Zap Gap 40#
Fish Bladder glue: 40#
Knox: 42#
2 ton epoxy: 44#
Steve
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Yeah, I saw that data by Tim Baker in TBB (a while back). I thought it was interesting that there is only one slot for hide glue when there are different varieties and strengths of hide glue. I can't remember if he was rating homemade stuff or the best quality available, or if he took an average of various grades. In any case, it's good to know that knox works for backing bows.
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Jack, I beleive that he explains the hide glue he used. Knox is great though.
But you know how it is in this primitive bow world. There is so much mis information and so much varity between bowyers. Some will only use hide glue and tell you all else will not work, some use ashes and boil there bows to get the sinew to hold, others use acetate on there bows, others lick them after eating spagetti and meatballs to ensure that the siezing holds, and yet others only sinew there bows with whale glue under the light of a full moon and only when its at 90% humidity....lol.......
I cant tell ya all the stuff that I have heard from bowyers. All great people who have there own way of doing things. Persoanlly I really like knox because its cheap, I can get it at Meijer at 4:00 am, it does not smell, it comes in great little packs that serve as measuring tools do you can really keep track of how much you use, it is colorless....whwich i really really like and best of all my wife does not mind me using "knox" but would kill me if i used "hide glue" in the basement.
I use it for: Sinew, Snake skins, rawhide, arrows, any tip covers (Inner cherry bark, rawhide like the west coast bows), Paint bases for primitive paints etc.....everything you would use hide glue for I substitute with Knox.
It may really come down t technique of aplication.
Steve
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...others lick them after eating spaghetti and meatballs to ensure that the sizing holds, and yet others only sinew there bows with whale glue under the light of a full moon and only when its at 90% humidity....lol.......
;D ;D ;D
Thanks for that....I haven't heard anything other than what's posted here on PA....that's hilarious.
Good info. I've been using hide glue and fish glue for primitive paint......I'll try the knox too. As for the smell of hide glue, the only batch I got that was smelly was my first batch I bought from a popular "trading post" internet site. I threw that batch out after getting some of the good stuff from a violin maker. Now that I know what to look for, I haven't had any problems with smelly glue.
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Hide glue is flexable enough for bows already. Glycerin or sorbitol should work to make it more flexable. I have used glycerin just to test it but haven't used it on a bow. Bone glue is more flexable than hide glue but is not as strong.
I saw Tim Baker's report also. I have read a few others by physicists and chemists who disagree with Baker. The disadvantage Baker was is at is that there is no way to know what went into his gelatin. Modern gelatin production uses 44% pig skin 28% cow hide and 27% bone with the remaining 1% as other material. I can see that different percentages would provide different strengths. If you buy hide glue you don't really know what you are getting. If you make glue from hides only it will be stronger.
I'm not going to get as arrogant as to say what is best. Best glue is like best bow design or best bow wood. If you can get one and not another it is best. I do know is that all animal glues are very strong. Hide glue once fully dry will not creep like most PVA glues until a temperature of 425* is reached. Gelatin is convenient to get and use and if you don't know what you are really buying when you buy hide glue you are probably better off. Some will tell you that it is impossible to make water proof, but I know there are several ways to make it waterproof. I have tried 2 that work, but most don't want to hear that so I will leave that for another discussion. :o Justin
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Justin I want to hear about it..??
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ok... soo if knox glue is more natural than tite bond and stonger for rawhide backings... will it also work as a wood glue???? i mean could knox glue or hide glue work for backing a board bow with say a wood backing???
the reason i ask is cuase i wanted to make another bow.. a lighter wieght bow than my first one but allso a lot shorter... but i was just thinking of going with something low poundage just to play around with mabe a rabbit bow or squirel bow... maybe a 52" bow around 30's to 40's i got the plank cut its pecan and its the left over piece of bord that i used to make the first bow.. i have both blank and backing in pecan and already cut @52" but they are not glued up... was thinking of useing Titebond III... not really concerned with these material just becuase its what was left over from the rip for the first bow but no sense in wasting it since i could still try and make something from it... right...
but would knox glue work better than the titebond for wood to wood??? if soo how would i do this sense i have never used or worked with home made glue and dont know how mix or prepare??????
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G2, TB works just fine. More bows are done with TB than probably most other glues combined. I don't recommend using TB for sinew though. If you want to make glue from Knox read the label on the back for mixing then apply it like glue. ;D Hide glue is used to glue the wood on many musical instruments like violins to glue wood to wood. It also glues ivory on piano keys so yes it will work. I keep mine in a glass jar on the wife's candle warmer to keep it warm while working. I also prefer using it in a warm room so it stays liquid longer on the project. Justin
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I would use TB2 or TB3 for any wood to wood laminates. I would not use hide glue or knox.
Steve
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Hide glue is flexable enough for bows already. Glycerin or sorbitol should work to make it more flexable. I have used glycerin just to test it but haven't used it on a bow. Bone glue is more flexable than hide glue but is not as strong.
I saw Tim Baker's report also. I have read a few others by physicists and chemists who disagree with Baker. The disadvantage Baker was is at is that there is no way to know what went into his gelatin. Modern gelatin production uses 44% pig skin 28% cow hide and 27% bone with the remaining 1% as other material. I can see that different percentages would provide different strengths. If you buy hide glue you don't really know what you are getting. If you make glue from hides only it will be stronger.
I'm not going to get as arrogant as to say what is best. Best glue is like best bow design or best bow wood. If you can get one and not another it is best. I do know is that all animal glues are very strong. Hide glue once fully dry will not creep like most PVA glues until a temperature of 425* is reached. Gelatin is convenient to get and use and if you don't know what you are really buying when you buy hide glue you are probably better off. Some will tell you that it is impossible to make water proof, but I know there are several ways to make it waterproof. I have tried 2 that work, but most don't want to hear that so I will leave that for another discussion. :o Justin
Justin, I too would like to hear about your techniques to make knox waterproof, if you don't mind sharing.
Dane
PS What is the basic ratio of Knox to water when initially mixing? 1 to 1?
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I have been in rain and very high humidity with bows that are sinewed and finished in True-Oil. I have not had any sinew lift as of yet. Once you cover something in true-oil its pretty waterproof, same with tung oil. I hunt with my sinew bows in all weather and do not worry about it. I have not been in POURING rain with one but woul not hunt in those conditions anyways. True-Oil or Tung oil is really water proof enough for a sinew backed bow. Its not as delicate as you would think.
Steve
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Some of my best hunt's have been in some nasty weather.. Ive taken alot of game in the rain.. Its much easier to stalk up on hogs and such in the rain.
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Steve, you are correct that any oil based finish will protect sinew and hide glue from water intrusion. It is a great option since hide glue is not oil emulsified, will not dissolve in oil.
I was talking about making the glue completely water proof, not shielding it from water. 1 part bichromate of potash for every 2 parts of cake glue used makes it light sensitive. This is what photo engravers glue is. You must keep it in a dark colored glass jar. After you have completed the project you leave it out in the light. With light exposure the glue becomes insoluble. Exposure to formaldehyde will also make hide glue water proof. Both of these products bichromate of potash and formaldehyde are toxic, but the properties that make each work can be found naturally occurring in every NA camp or even in your deer or family camp. ;)
A twig of willow or dogwood placed into your jar of hide glue will keep it fresh much longer. (don't forget this since rotten hide glue smells just like rotting cow hide) :P Justin
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Yes, those are both nasty chemicals. I did not know that they would make hide glue unsoluable. Thats intersting but how would you do it safely. If you could apply after the bow was sinewed i suppose you could do it controlled and in asafe way........but if you have to mix it with the glue and be exposed while sinewing it would be a concern as sinewing is messy and you cant not get it on you.....or at least I cant.
have you used either?
Steve
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Both.... ;) I mixed some in a bowl and let it dry. Then I filled the bowl with water on top of the hard hide glue. It never did dissolve. :o
I sinewed the bow and let it dry good. Then I applied the potash/glue as a finish and kept it in the dark for a few days to dry good. After it was dry I put it in the light. Formaldehyde is not super dangerous as long as you don't try to drink it. :P You can mix it in the glue then make darn sure your project doesn't get dry or cool. The other way is formaldehyde vapor on the finished project. Put it in a hot box with the heat on and a small container in the box. As it evaporates it permeates the hide glue and hardens it. Like I said, these chemicals are found in most campsites only in less dangerous forms. Ask yourself how Natives waterproofed buckskin and what it was that made it waterproof. Do a little research on bichromate of potash or chromate of potash. Potash is simple enough. The chemistry of chromate and bichromate hold a little more secret but you will discover a less dangerous form, not exactly the same but close enough, exists within reach of you at all times. Ill do a buildalong on a bow I have started that will shed a little more light on it, but I want some people to do some thinking like I did before I just tell all the answears. It took me months to figure out what (I think) the natives used, but I am convinced they had the knowledge. :o Justin
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Thats real god info.
Whats interesting is that the NA may have had a way to actully waterproof there sinew bows?? I always guessed that they used fat.....wich will waterproof it enough to get by just not in down pours or extened stays in moisture.
I will think on it ???.
Steve
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Hmmmm....smoke contains formaldehyde, but only in small amounts. I guess if you smoke something long enough....
I don't know anything about bichromate of potash or chromate of potash, but it sounds like you might have discovered a mineral that can be burned to create the compound? Sounds interesting.
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There ya go, i was thinking maybe ashes but that would not contain enough would it?
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Now your thinking.... Depending on what plants you burn you can increase the formaldehyde.
Potash is what it sounds like.... think getting the hair off of a hide. Steve was thinking right on this one. ;)
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Hay Justin:
What about that black crud in my chimney??
We are planning on cleaning the chimney this weekend.
David
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Hmmmmmm.....mixing in 1% aluminum sulfate into a batch of hide glue will make it almost insoluble (after it dries)...that's fairly well know among woodworkers who use hide glue. Justin, are you saying that adding potassium sulfate will do the same thing?
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I'm saying you can leach potash from hardwood ashes which when added to the other ingredient is almost exactly the same as bichromate of potash.
Aluminum sulphate, or you can get some of the benefit from alum in your wife's spice rack.
You hit on another point. Many fine woodworkers and especially those working with antique or expensive furnature use hide glue on their projects. Why are we scared to use it on wood laminations? Justin
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Now your thinking.... Depending on what plants you burn you can increase the formaldehyde.
Potash is what it sounds like.... think getting the hair off of a hide. Steve was thinking right on this one. ;)
Hahaha! "Depending on what plants you burn you can increase the formadehyde " AND the potash. Hahaha! You guys are banannas ! Hahaha !
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This is interesting Justin. I never knew you were a chemist. Does your LE training have anything to do with it? Making hide glue not water soluble is interesting to someone from the humid south east. Pat
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Hahaha! "Depending on what plants you burn you can increase the formadehyde " AND the potash. Hahaha! You guys are banannas ! Hahaha !
You disagree Bob? ???
Nice to see you back. Justin
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Didnt say I disagree, just said
You guys are BANANAS ! ::)
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I think he is ginving us a hint maybe. What do you get when you burn bannanas?
Steve
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What do you get when you burn bannanas
Pissed off hungry monkeys........ ;D Bananas are pretty high in potassium.....
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I can get bucket fulls of Potash at work. It's one of the main ingrediants for making good fertilizer.
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and good fertilizer makes mean Bombs!! We used to use Ammonium Nitrate to shear off cliff in the Iron Ore Mines in Upper Michigan ....when I worked there in the 70's..........now what were We talking about here.......... ::)
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nox bombs
>:D >:D >:D >:D
Zander