Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: ballista on September 26, 2008, 10:50:56 pm
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hello everyone,
i'd love to find information on greek bows, or bows from around that region, but i'm not finding about componests of the bow on the web. I was thinking of who to ask, or what to read, when PA popped up. if someone knows about primitive archery, it'll be here ;D as far as turk bows, which ive done a few searches of research on, they take a few years to make...........oi.so, if anyone yeilds information on greek bows, or even a cool horn +wood+sinew bow, im 100% devoted to creating a part of my herritage. thanks, -jimmy
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Try this. Are you Greek? Jawge
http://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1008&context=classicsfacpub
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yes i am, 50 percent- proud of it too ;D i was born there, moved here when i was young so i dont rember much, are you?
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by the way, that post is way informitave, thanks alot ;D
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Oh yes. Big time. Do you speak Greek? Jawge
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Jawge, great paper, I glanced at it, and will read it later.
Ballista, I take it you like, or build, ballistas? Next year, I hope to start a gastrophetes, after I finish my two in-progress catapultas.
Dane
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kalispera ballista,
dunno whether or not you're interested in literature on the topic and these are available on the net,
but maybe the following might lead furtheron one way or the other. so here's a little bibliography on
ancient, e. g. greek artillery
G. T. Griffith, The Mercenaries of the Hellenistic World, London 1935
E. W. Marsden, Greek and Roman Artillery. Historical Development, Oxford 1969
Sir Ralph Payne-Gallwey, The Projectile Throwing Engines of the Ancients, London 1907 [ND London 1973].
Sir Ralph Payne-Gallwey, A Treatise on the Construction, Power and Management of Turkish and Other Oriental
Bows of Mediaeval and Later Times, London 1907 [ND London 1973]
Michael M. Sage, Warfare in Ancient Greece. A Sourcebook, London 1996
Hans van Wees, Greek Warfare. Myths and Realities, London 2004
Henry Balfour, The Archer’s Bow in the Homeric Poems, in: Journal of the Royal Archeological Institute 51 (1921), S. 289-309
Hilda L. Lorimer, Homer and the Monuments, London 1950
sto kalo
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efharisto poli attigas, and i cannot thank you guys enough for the quick replies, this website is great ;D my yia yia is teaching my greek at the moment, but I'm trying to learn spanish in school at the same time, pretty confusing.I had no idea there were other greek speaking people on PA! as far as greek literature, im very proud of my herritage, and plan on learning as much as i can on the philosophy and historic markings greece has yeilded, aside from the language and teachings, they'e warfare tatics, and machines. *dane* as far as bakllista's go, im a huge enthuistast on war machines, although I like the history of them the most-are you seriously building a gastrophetes? im more into crossbow type stuff, although im not sure if theres a more usefull and cultural weapon in the world than the bow and arrow, or the blow gun for that matter. i have a replica of a greek(ish) bow im going to post on this topic in the next few days, although its not traditionally made, it looks alot like the bows i've seen from the searches i've done ( I bought it at the Flea market in lacrosse, wisconson) thank you again for the help in this search, ill try to post some pictures. thank you/efharisto -jimmy
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Ballita, I'd say in ancient times, the sling was far more important in warfare than the bow or the ballista. But, I love the machines, and am building two right now, a small scorpio-minor and a later scorpion. Next year, I will be starting a gastrophetes. I don't think anyone has tried building one in 2,000 years. Schramm did build one, but his had a steel bow, not a proper composite bow.
Right now, I have a last important tool on order, a pouring shank for bronze casting, and then I can get the various parts cast, at last.
Attached is a recent shot of the 2" machine's spring frame, riveted with hand made copper rivets. I have a thread going, and will add to it when I have sufficient progress. I expect both machines to be ready for testing this winter or early spring.
Add to the book list the second Marsden volume, Technical Tretises. Both are important.
Dane
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thats an awesome piece, thats for rope tention right? i saw a really cool claw and hammer trigger mechanism, if i make a mounted crossbow, i'd probibly use that. theres a kid at my school who uses a bamboo crossbow exclusivley for small game, i had him in my backyard doing a little squirell hunting, no luck, but that crossbow could easly put a well sized groundhog down from what i saw. thanks, -jimmy
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Ya Yia :) Greek was the first language I spoke. If I didn't speak Greek to Ya Yia I didn't speak to her. She was an immigrant as was my Dad. Long story. Ya Yia's English vocabulary included about 5 words which I can not say here. Learn as much of it as you can. Greek is a great language, Ballista. :) Jawge
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thats an awesome piece, thats for rope tention right? i saw a really cool claw and hammer trigger mechanism, if i make a mounted crossbow, i'd probibly use that. theres a kid at my school who uses a bamboo crossbow exclusivley for small game, i had him in my backyard doing a little squirell hunting, no luck, but that crossbow could easly put a well sized groundhog down from what i saw. thanks, -jimmy
Thanks, Jimmy. Yes, torsion powered, using horsehair rope in this case. Sinew rope is a future dream of mine, but that will be major work and cost - I estimate this machine will take between 150 and 200 feet of rope.
I am making the same type of trigger, Marsden illustrates them in his work, and about everyone has adopted this idea, even if no actual triggers have survived 2,000 years in the ground, as far as I know. The Greeks and Romans may have used something different, of course, or a variety of solutions. Much more is unknown than know.
Dane
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Any of you guy's got some info on this trgger mec ??
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i was thinking the greeks as well as the early romans disdained the use of a bow. there is a show on the history channel called weapon masters. the show is about resurrecting ancient weapons technology and putting a modern twist on it to see if they can achieve greater efficiency. the show on a couple weeks ago was about the roman scorpion. very informative! they actually compared the strength of different tortion materials like hair, man-made and natural rope, and sinew.
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KnightD, I can email you some blueprints for one interpretation of how the trigger works, as well as other info Marsden wrote about. He based his work on an ancient manuscript by a Greek engineer, Heron. I'd have to scan some pages, but will be happy to do that if you want.
Mech, I don't think it was disdain, it was that perhaps the Romans were not a bow culture. They recruited plenty of archers as auxilia / auxillary legionaries from all over the Empire. They also recruited slingers from outside of Rome, and used these weapons very effectively for centuries. The engines were of Greek origin, but were continually improved through the entire time the empire existed, culminating with the iron framed machines.
Dane
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i was thinking the greeks as well as the early romans disdained the use of a bow. there is a show on the history channel called weapon masters. the show is about resurrecting ancient weapons technology and putting a modern twist on it to see if they can achieve greater efficiency. the show on a couple weeks ago was about the roman scorpion. very informative! they actually compared the strength of different tortion materials like hair, man-made and natural rope, and sinew.
this show is my favourite at the moment!!! they made a reconstruction of an egyption angular bow, it was great- i saw the scorpion episode too.
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Yes, id love to see a few alternate trigger mechanizms, the few i know are hard to make without a drill press, or a plainer :P :P
thanks for the replies too, i never realized how efficient a crossbow can be as a hunting tool.
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I wish I had seen that episode. I should turn on the TV once in a while, eh?
One of the points of contention in the world of reconstructed ancient weapons is, do you try and build a machine that will give you a close idea of what the ancient engineers could do, or do you try and "improve" the performance, which isn't that valuable as a history lesson. Think about building a fiberglass English Warbow. What would that prove? :)
Can do, Jimmy. Just remember that the kinds of triggers I am talking about are for ballistas, scorpions, gastrophetes, etc., not for crossbows. Essentially, what we think triggers looked like are claws that hook over the bowstiring, and as you pull the trigger handle back, the claw lifts up, releasing the string and arrow.
I have included some sketchup drawings I made to help me design the parts. Be advised that I had to build a small forge to make all these metal parts, so they are not easy to do with hand tools alone. I am using bronze for my parts, the trigger parts as well as the associated Greek style linear ratchet (for the hand held scorpio), and a circular ratchet for the larger scorpion.
Also, a shot of the scorpion taken this past summer at a living history event. You can see the spring frame has not yet been plated, and is held on the stand by a wooden hand screw for the purposes of the display. The little hand held machine is on the ground, as you can see.
Dane
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;D ;D ;D you got the fire starte dagain, man. i made a crossbow last year using the chinese trigger mechanish, but a mounted ballista..... heck yes! haha, put that in a deer stand! that picture of the sketch is super helpful, i had a hard time understanding the claw and trigger-thanks. so after you pull the pin from the claw, wouldn't the string stay on the claw? it seems like the string's tension would pull the claw, im not sure though.
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Naw, the claw lifts up, and releases the bow string. See the fulcurm point bolt? And see the trigger handle? As you pull the handle back, it slips out from under the trigger claw, which is under tremendous pressure holding 700 to 1000+ pounds of force. The claw handle lifts up, and bam, it fires. I will be actually beveling the rear undersurface of my trigger claw when I cast it (not reflected in the drawings), to facilitate that.
The deer, should you shoot one from a tree stand, will likely explode at that range :)
Dane
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Ballista, the museum in Athens has a few artifacts, but no bows. There are plenty of arrow points though. Everything from flint to steel and bronze. I try to make it back home once a year, but with the way things are going around the globe right now I think I will stay here in the good ol USA.
Yeasou!
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dane, you make a good point, but i like to see if "primitive" techonology can be improved. most of the time it cannot. afterall, we still can't build a pyramid as good as they did 3000 years ago.
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Thanks, Mechslasher. It depends on your intent. If you want to reconstuct a catapult that would have been used in the 1st century AD, and then modify it to "improve it", you will have defeated the purpose of learing how a 1st century catapult would have performed. It is kind of like Civil War reenactors wearing gore-tex and polyester uniforms, and firing rifled muskets with laser sights and glass bedded barrels.
Remember too there is no such thing as primitive technology when it was in use.
Dane
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The greeks, as Ive heard, stayed away from archery besides in the navy. The engeneers created a prototype, or something along those lines, of the roman scorpion. from that skeleton came rope tension, and the claw and trigger. My uncle lives there, I guess you cant hunt in greece with a rifle, so there big into shotguns- but they make bows from mastic trees and trees that grow fuit. I made a short bow out of an apple tree branch that dried for 3 seasons, ans short as it was, that thing packed a punch, something around 45 pounds, my scale is pretty iffy. More into 300 ;D have you guys heard of the tree cannon? i saw it on mythbusters too, they actually work...pretty freaky-shoot granite balls the size of softballs, use loads of gun powder ;D
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Jimmy, no one is certain, of course, but it is thought that the catapult was invented on Syracuse, in the form of the gastrophetes. They evolved into bigger and bigger tension (with a bow) catapults, and then at one point, Greek engineers developed torsion springs to power the machines, as there was an upper limit to how large you could bulid a composite bow (and imagine a 15' composite bow exploding!).
I haven't forgotten the trigger info - just totally busy. Soon, I promise.
Dane
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haha yeah, i know what you mean by buisy, shools biting me in the ass, i cant go hunting until i bring my grades up, so my dad and i have to sneak out of th house to go hunting for a few hours, BS if you ask me.(run on sentance, sorry ;D) Have you seen the handheld versions of the rope tention crossbows? I saw one on youtube, im not sure how much of anadvantage they'd have over steel would be though.
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Do you mean like the attached photo? This is one interpretation of a manuballista, or scorpio-minor, or small catapult, or whatever they called them (no one knows for certain).
This machine looks a bit like a crossbow, but is not, as it is torsion powered.
I based this on the 1st Century AD Xantan find, but only the frame was found, so the rest of the machine is conjecture, and I chose to make it a belly cocker. I am now fabricating the steel plating for the spring frame, and please note that the springs are just mocked up out of jute twine, not horsehair which will replace them. The spring diameter is about 1.25". It is made of white ash, as were some original Roman catapults.
Dane
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Oh, to address your question of advanteges over steel, 2000 years ago, it is doubtful that the Greeks or Romans would have made steel bows for thier arrow and stone firing machines. Marsden discusses that, and don't recall the details this early in the morning. :) There was a theoretical bronze leaf spring machine, but it was probably never built.
Dane
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damn, thats pretty cool dane! you getting descent accuracy with that? thats awesome. youre in the line of crossbows, thats kinda how my passion for archery started up, as im sure yours was similar ;D you ever hear of the chu ku no? (chinese repeating crossbow, korea used it alot too) they look kinda similar, if you havent heard of it, ill try to post a few links, there amazing. im definatley going to make one this coming winter, killing machines. maybe youve heard of them, or other people viewing the post- definetley worth looking up. oh dane, thats exactily what i was thinking of! -jimmy
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Thanks, Jimmy. I dont yet know how it will perform, as it is not quite done yet, but I expect it to be very accurate, with a far flatter and faster trajectory than a hand bow. These were designed with only one goal, to kill the enemy.
As I thnk I mentioned, I have a pouring shank that is going to be delivered to me next week, finally, which you use to pour the molten bronze from the crucible into your molds. There is no way I wanted to skimp on foundry tools, though they are expensive, so jury rigging tools is out of the question. A slip up could literally mean death or ghastly injury. The particular bronze alloy I am using has a melting temperature of about 1600 degress f.
I will post photos and such when I get to that point, as well as of course performance data when the machine is done. Video too, if I can figure out how to do that.
Dane
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Oh, love the Chinese repeating crossbow. I do want to build one one day, as well. A very cool machine, and they look like a lot of fun. The bad thing is you are forced to make a bunch of bolts for it - arrow making is not my favorite activity :)
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Thanks to George for the link - I haven't read it yet but it looks quite interesting. I am 40%
Greek from my father's side and an archer. My family is from Methone, mentioned in the Illiad as
having sent 50 skilled archers to the battle at Troy. Archery was recognized as a legitimate form
of fighting in the Trojan war era. In fact, Philoctetes was considered a hero for his skill with
the bow as was Hercules. Teucer, half-brother to Ajax the Great was immortalized as giving some
success to the Achaeans by killing several charging Trojans, including Hector's charioteer. He
fought alongside Ajax, firing from behind his great shield. Probably about 1100 BC is when the bow
started falling into disfavor among the Greeks as a more cowardly form of fighting. However,
archery continued all through Crete's history. Then with the invasion of the Persians the Greeks
again started recognizing the necessity of the bow in warfare. Athenians, Cretans, Corinthians and Scythians were then used on land and sea. Slightly previous to this they used the Scythians, the archers of the day (1/3rd being women) as mercenaries and even as a police force in Athens. Alexander the Great of course used Cretan and Scythian archers in his conquests.
As for the type of wood used - I read somewhere of a Roman writing about how they copied a bow from
the Greeks made out of yew. I am having a replica of a bow from 1250 BC made out of both Juniper
and olive wood. Juniper because it is a wood indigenous to Greece with wonderful qualities and olive because my family in Greece owned olive orchards. Hickory is also indigenous to Greece so I'm sure
they made both bows and arrow from this wood.
For 2 years now I have had a yahoo groups primitive archer site, where we are trying to form a
reenactment and competition club. Things are starting to progress. We hope to have a demo team
put together for next summer when we will travel to renfaires and such. Members so far will portray:
3 or 4 various Native American tribes, 2 medieval longbowman, 2 Polish Hussars and myself as a
Mycenaean Greek.
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haha! another fellow greek, I love it man. you know alot about the history of warfare there, too- good to know. I was born in greece, and I lived in sanga for a while, not too far from sparta ;D you hunt much? or do you know any of the indeginious game animals in greece? i"d like to know, im going in the next 3 years, i might want to bring my longbow ;D dana: the chinese repeating crosssbow is real hard to make. I couldn't get the damn trigger to work, after taking the effort of making the bow and sawing the push stick arms. Its fone, there not very accurate either. about the bolts, i kinda think its a loosing battle-no fletchings. this isnt an ancient model, but this link has a real cool repeater, thats really accuraty, supposizley. im going to see if my woods teacher will let me make it next semister.thanks for all the quick replies -jimmy
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http://www.vintageprojects.com/archery/crossbowfull.pdf
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Well, Ballista - My dad did a lot of bow hunting, but he died when I was 13. So I didn't pick up
archery again until my own son was 16. My son and I have only gone small game hunting with shotgun.
But we would both love to go bowhunting. Life is just too complicated right now. He's finished
active duty (spent 13 months in Iraq), now he's juggling a job at the airport, Reserve duty and
fireman's academy. I'll be 60 in a few months, have no work (live in Michigan, highest unemployment
in the country) and I'm actually in the process of filing bankruptcy right now. I have 2 aunts who
have visited Greece twice now and they hooked up with family in Methone. Methone is about 20 miles
SW of Kalamata as the crow flies and about 7 miles directly south of Pilos. Don't know what game there
is to hunt in Greece but sure would love to get there someday.
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I'm sorry to hear that brother. the market being the way it is, i doubt alot of things will go planned, including greece- were not at a financial peak either man. do you live in the bigger chunk of MI or the UP? My buddy always heads up to the UP with his dad, small town called republic, something i'd love to do. I just recently started huntin with a bow, then again i also just recently started deer hunting- its never too late man! -jimmy
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I live in the 'mit' as we call it. I've been in the the UP a couple of times, all the way up to the
top at Lake Superior. Absolutely gorgeous up there. I have a buddy that lives up there in Big
Bear. If you've ever seen the Hitchcock movie, "Twelve Angry Men", it was filmed there, where the
murder actually took place. I think you live in Wisc or MN right?
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oh Im actually way up north illinois, real close to wisconson- nice country, but I'd love to see the riversides and valleys of up north, today I was trying to track a gut shot buck in takk grass and thick brush, with dime sizd blood trails, it was ridiclous, but at least the country was good to see. oh theres a great movie about the UP, a hunting comedy, its called escanada in da moonlight, hilarious. -jimmy
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Ask DanaM about Escanaba in da moonlight.......
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Ask DanaM about Escanaba in da moonlight.......
haha bad experience or something?