Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: whitewoodshunter on September 23, 2008, 01:18:26 pm
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I have recently taken a strong liking to the Eastern Woodlands style of bow. In fact last Friday I took a small doe with a sinew backed, Red Oak, Eastern Woodlands style bow.The bow is 60 ntn and pulls 55@ 25#. Anyone else like to build this style of bow? And if so please show pics. I need something to compare my work to.
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here's one of mine 45# at 28" sinew backed .
(http://www.freebirdarchery.com/images/fulldraw.jpg)
(http://www.freebirdarchery.com/images/handlefront.jpg)
(http://www.freebirdarchery.com/images/handleback.jpg)
(http://www.freebirdarchery.com/images/sinewlimb.jpg)
Not the prettiest bow I ever made , but a good shooter.
Ralph
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What kind of wood is that?
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Nice arc on that bow Ralph, so what's considered a estern woodlands bow ?
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Nice tiller, thanks for sharing. I'm with Pirate though--what's considered an "eastern woodlands" type of bow?
~~Papa Matt
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The eastern woodland indians are all the EAST coast indains from from northern canada all the way to florida and into the midwest. It is a pretty genaric term like "plains indians". The differnce between bows and tribes in the eastern woodlands is HUGE. Its much better to work from smaller areas or tribes because there is such a varience in woods and style of eastern woodland bows. very few of these tribes used sinew backed bows. They for the most part used selfbows of white woods.
Hope that helps a bit.
Here are a few Eastern wood land bows:
(http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d114/yewarcher/algonkian%200262008/back.jpg)
(http://www.primitivearcher.com/http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d114/yewarcher/algonkian%200262008/bottomnock.jpg)
(http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d114/yewarcher/Algonkian%20Recurve/carvedhead.jpg)
(http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d114/yewarcher/potowotami%20bow/scallop1.jpg)
(http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d114/yewarcher/keeper%20of%20the%20game/100_3044.jpg)
Those are a few examples of the bows.
Steve
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Thanks Manny and Matt . I can't remember what kind of wood that bow is right now .My mind is a bit cluttered ,ash or elm one. It was my first attempt to make a Sudbury like bow . I've gave it away a few years ago. I do remember it has a hemp string.
I think when someone says 'eastern woodland bow' they mean a of a type like would have been by one of the tribes east of the big muddy river.
Ralph
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lol.....opps......I meant EAST COAST!!!!!!
Sorry about that!
Steve
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Gentleman, awesome bows! I love the East Coast design. Easy to make. 99% of the board bows I've made are of that ilk. Very little hand shock provided the handle bending is kept low by the tiller. Why back it? In my yard, I've go black locust, ash, maple, oak, beech and ash. Bow wood heaven! No need. Great bow wood is readily available. :) Jawge
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(http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e279/bonney-weyers/DSCN5715.jpg)
Here's one that I have been working on. It's 64" long 1 1/4" wide at the center,1/2" wide tips, made of shagbark hickory. It has pretty fine growth rings, which I believe leads to weaker wood. So this bow took 2" of set, but draws 43# at 27". It's for a friend who wants to do very close range deer hunting. I think it would do it, but it's up to him to decide. I'm making another one also, and he gets to choose between them.
Here's the bow with stain on it. I just took fresh fallen walnut husks and rubbed on. 100% Primitive ;D!
(http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e279/bonney-weyers/DSCN5761.jpg)
(http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e279/bonney-weyers/DSCN5762.jpg)
(http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e279/bonney-weyers/DSCN5758.jpg)
I am not an expert on this, but from what I have seen in books, there is one style that shows up all across the diverse area referred to as the Eastern Woodlands. It is the long, narrow bow, rectangular in cross section. I think of eastern woodlands more as a type of forest, with certain kinds of trees that grow tall and straight. So where ever hickory grows, or elm, for example, it probably made sense to make this style of bow, given the woodworking technology that was available. Of course there are also other styles and variations. But say that you need a bow fast, have stone tools and antler wedges to work with, and you find a recent-storm downed giant hickory tree. Hmmm??? I have even seen storm blasted trees with pre-split bow staves just standing there. Too bad the last time I saw one it was in a State Park.
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nice bows, thanx guys.
so looks like the bows mainly have very little taper to make the tips not much narrower than the middle of the bow.
O.K., lets see yours white woodhunter
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Yar Jawge I agree. There are some real fine Eastern Woodlands bows to make. Some real creative people. Some tribes really got pretty decorative with sculpted heads and such. I have a liking towards the Algonkian and the Potowatomi bows. I also LOVE the Cayuga indian bows. I have a pair of those bent, shaped and a waiting my time to tiller them. A great selections of woods as well.
They however used very little osage. Probably cause of that nasty sap wood! :-X.
manny, some did taper but for the most part genericly the answer is no......they did not taper most of there bows. Actully allot have big spear tips and heads or klunky spade shapes. All very very cool and I love them and when making them am not thinking efficiant or fps.
Steve
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Eastern woodland bows are fascinating. I especially like the ones with scalloped edges and such. Hickory allows for a tremendous variation in design, and it seems the Indians took full advantage of it. Good thread. ;D
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They however used very little osage
That's because it doesn't grow here (or didn't at that time). In my area, most of the bows were made in the same design (long, rectangular, flat arc tiller, little width taper) but were mostly made from locust with the occasional mulberry, hickory, elm, sassafras, etc. Locust is the "osage of the East" and seems to have been preferred wherever it was available.
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I would post pics but I can't figure out how. I'm pretty computer illiterate.
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I understand Whitewoodshunter. I can't ever post pics either, as much as I'd like to. The only time I can get on here is when I'm here a the labor. Can't be uploading pics and stuff on company equipment. And I don't have a computer at home since I'm quite poor. Just gotta keep hopin' for a better way some day... :'(
~~Papa Matt
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Hillbilly, Yes. That is just so. I was just taken a good humored jab at all the fellas who like Osage.
Steve
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Matt have you tried uploading pictures from your local library ?
Ralph
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I have used that library before, but I've since boycotted it. I once checked out a video, and forgot to return it on the due date. When they sent me a reminder, and I returned it, they said I owed $25. I asked what for, and they said as a LATE FEE. I said are you ******* crazy, the video itself, if it were brand new, wouldn't be worth $25 even if I had kept it forever!!! So I told them to stick it ********* and have never went back. And I never paid the $25 and I never will. I could see $5 or MAYBE even $10, but $25??? Who do they think they are, the government?!! So I never go there anymore.
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I am still interested in what constitutes an "Eastern Woodland bow." Even though as someone said earlier in this post there is much diversity among such bows, is there something distinctive about the design, shape, etc. that would permit me to say, "I made an Eastern Woodland bow." I am asking this only because I am interested in making one (or knowing if perhaps I already have!). THanks.
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NtProf, I think most mean a flat bellied bow that bends through the handle. Length varied greatly from 50s to 70s inches. there will be little or no narrowing of width in the grip area. No rigid handle. Whitewoods or black locust mostly. cThe pic above by Orcbow is representative. there was clearly variability in styles among these cultures. The famous Sudbury bow from CT of the 1600s has a narrowed tapering width mid-section. At its most simplistic, if you make a bow that is in that length range, 1 3/8" or so wide, same width for whole bow (except the usual tip taper), bends through the handle, you can say its an eastern woodland bow. Just about the simplist bow you can make and very effective. The old adage was that these bows were great up to about 55# but started to run into hand shock troubles with more power/
Dave
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Brothers, if there's no narrowing, or very little, in the hanlde area, then aren't they uncomfortable to shoot, having to wrap your hand around an inch or so wide handle?
~~Matt
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NT, Saying I made an Eastern Woodland bow is almost like saying "I made an ancient european bow". Again, they are the most varyed of all NA bows and cultures because they are all lumped into that catagory. Its just to generic of a term.
Steve
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NTProf, the "typical" EWB is like Snedeker said- longish, narrow, rectangular, little width taper, usually diamond nocks. The book Encyclopedia of Bows, Arrows, and Quivers of the Native Americans, vol. 1 by Jim Hamm and Steve Allely has many, many examples. There are a few wild cards like the Sudbury-type bows, and a few variations like mild recurves or deflex/reflex profiles, but 90% of the historical examples fit into the style just mentioned.
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(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr6/whitewoodshunter/jack1da.jpg)
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Thanks for your help, everyone!
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YewArcher is correct. "Eastern Woodland Bow" really does include a lot of bow designs from the long but narrow in width flatbow to the sinew backed recurve to the rigid handle Sudbury bow. But typically its the long flatbow, bend in the handle design that people have in mind when discussing Eastern Woodland bows. Jawge
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Let me see if got this right--- the handle area is no thinner than the mid limbs, or very slightly? So there would be a limit to draw weight of these bows, because you can only make them an inch or so wide, since that would be all the wider your handle area could be and still be comfortable in your hand, correct? Of course you can make the wood slightly thicker or slightly thinner to increase draw weight, but that only goes so far. Is it not possible to have a bow in this style with a very high draw weight, then? ???
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Very high draw weights are possible with the Eastern woodland style bows....as are very low weights. IMO, the style of these bows is not dependant on width, depth or length dimensions. The style can be defined as "Rectangular cross section D-bows with wide tips" in the majority of cases.
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Thicker makes stronger in a hurry. The eastern woodlands bow is a universal design, not that different from many bows from early Europe, Asia, South America, etc. It is easy to make and hard to break because it is often overbuilt.
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Remember that most of the heavy European warbows are basically a very similar design except with a little rounder cross-section and and people regulary make them at weights over a hundred pounds.
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most of the european war bows were a lot longer also.
As far as I have read about the native american bows, sinew backed bows were mainly used in california and the plains area. this was mainly due to the climate factors. If you look back to history, sinew backed bows have mainly been used in areas that have a dry climate. A sinew backed bow performs best in dry areas.
What are mainly considered as eastern woodland bows are usually bows made from whitewoods such as hickory and maple. the bows were mainly D profile with a flattened belly. and selfbows.
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Papa Mat, not necessarily. My board bows are mostly 1.5 in. wide. ELB's have the handle as the widest part also. Their draw weights were very high. The only EWB pic's I've seen with narrowed handles is the Sudbury and the Pawmunkey , I believe, so they were not typical. See Vol 2 of the Encylopedia of Bows and Arrows by Hamm and Allely. Jawge
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One thing that I wonder about is how sure we really are about pre-European contact bows in the Eastern US. There are very very few actual archaeological specimens. We don't have many peat bogs or dry caves. There are the couple bows from colonial times like the Sudbury. the eastern seaboard was heavily impacted by European trade by the beginning of the 17th century. Tbe English drawings from the early 1600s seem to look a little too much like ELBs seemingly based on the bias of the artists. I wonder how accurate some of the attribution of such and such a style to such and such a tribe can be,
I'm of the school that sees the bow introduced to the NE US around AD900. That means the bow concept was still relatively young when it was replaced by the gun.
Dave (Eastern Woodland Archaeologist)
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Dave, if you believe the bow arrived in NE US around 900, (I'm not implying that I would agree nor disagree) do you have a theory as to why it would have taken so long for it to be adopted there? What about other parts of the country, which, in your belief, had the bow first? Just curious
~~Papa Matt
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Theres a nice paper on this by a guy named Burke or something like that. I'll dig it out. The bow was around in northern Canada pretty early. Couple thousand BC maybe. Maybe enters northern Plains of US by around AD 200. Use of it diffuses from there, 900 or so in NE and SW US. Maybe a little earlier in SE for some reason.
One of the big pieces of evidence for this is projectile point characteristics. There's a suggen change to small triangular points of the same general style across a large area in the late first millenium AD. earlier ones are simply too big too be effective arrow points.
Of course, one might ask about the potential use of fire hardened wood points. A lot of the indisputable arrows found in Gila Cave, NM from AD 900 had wood points.
The problem is the lack of direct archaeological evidence. I do know that there is not a single specimen of a tool that is clearly a bow known from anywhere south of the Canadian border prior to the first Millenium AD
Dave
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I think this is a fascinating topic. But since there is such a lack of archeological evidence with regards to wood artifacts, who knows if we will ever know the full story.
I think there is a "eastern woodland bow" that is a generic style. And I don't think it does any dis-service to any culture, because I believe it represents a utility bow if nothing else. A feed your family bow. I think it has to be made with the woods of the east to qualify as a eastern woodland bow. If it is made from yew then it becomes an english long bow. The people who made these bows in the past had good reasons to do what they did, and made the best of their local resources. There is no reason to think that the people who lived in the wide area of the "eastern woodland" would not share their ideas, and if making a long, narrow, bend-in-the-handle bow, made sense, why wouldn't they do it? Especially if it could be made fast and easily. Imagine if making a bow was a chore, not a privilege or a hobby. Wouldn't that lead to a simplified design. And if someone was talented and innovative they would add some carving, or make a double bow or otherwise add something to the design to make it "theirs". Or a certain unique piece of wood may lead to a special design, like our character bows.
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well.. the Natives lived in communities just like we do. mainly things went so that a community had maybe a few bow makers who made bows as their job. not everyone made their own. I believe that the character bows of the time were the ones that were totally straight. you guys know how hard it is to make a perfectly straight bow from a stave. then of course ceremonial bows were different with all sorts of carvings and other characteristics.
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this is my idea of a eastern woodlands bow. i forget the actual dimentions but this one is an exact replica of the bow in ttbb. it's 55#@28" and shoots about 158fps if i remember right. i've always heard the bow crossed the mississippi around 1500-2000 yeas ago.
[attachment deleted by admin]
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That's some respectable speed, ain't it Mechlasher? Is that one of the faster bows you've made or how do you consider its 158fps? I've never measured the speed of one of mine, so I am trying to get a feel for what "good" speed would be.
~~Papa Matt
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this about average speed for a straight bow. if a straight selfbow of mine shoots 100+bow wieght i'm happy. recurves are a different story.