Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: JackCrafty on September 19, 2008, 02:54:33 pm
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Ok guys, now that I've got a few double curves under my belt, I'm looking for some feedback....and questions. I'm hoping to be able to make accurate reproductions....or at least get close to the real thing with the limited info that we have.
This bow is a reproduction of a NA sinew backed "double curve" used by several tribes (Apache, Blackfoot, etc.). Here are the stats:
- Started with 48" long stave of ashe juniper, 90% heartwood, with a slight natural deflex in the middle. Seasoned about 6 months.
- After shaping (using combination of steam and dry heat) the bow is 47-1/2" long and about 46" ntn.
- 1-1/16" wide mid limb and 1/2" wide tips. Tapered smoothly from middle to tips.
- The limbs have taken about 1-1/4" of set.
- Draw weight 45# @ 22".
- Sinew string (elk leg).
- Brace height 4-1/2".
- Shoots 320 grain arrow at 138 fps. (the arrow in the photos)
- Mass is 10.9 oz + string .4 oz (175 grains) = 11.3 oz total
- Backed with 2 thin courses elk leg sinew (1/16" thick total). The sinew was applied with fish glue and tightly wrapped with twine until hardened (2 weeks).
- Dried for 1 month before shooting and final tillering.
- Painted on back with acrylic paints and finished with a few coats of tung oil.
I tillered the bow to 16" draw without sinew. It was about 35 lb at this draw. The outer 8" of the tips does not bend...I intentionally deflexed the tips.
OK, here are some personal observations and opinions on this type of bow:
- Many of these bows have "built in" stack.....the NA bowyers were aware of stack and used it to some advantage. This bow stacks at about 22" but is smooth up to this point. The advantage of the built in stack might be to cause the archer to release the arrow at just the right draw length--by making it harder to maintain a grip (Laubin) but I don't think this is the only reason. I think the stack is a "safety" feature that helps prevent overdraw and breakage...something that could easily happen when hunting on horseback or during combat.
- The sinew doesn't add much to the performance of the bow. I have a couple others of this design (without backing) and I haven't seen a difference in performance. I think the sinew is a safety feature.
- Very little hand shock.
- Wrist slap is a problem...unless a stiff wrist guard is worn. In any case, this makes the bow noisy to shoot. I don't think the low brace height was used when hunting quietly. The bow must have been braced higher for "stealth" operations. The fact that the bowstring was tied at one end seems to indicate the need to adjust string tension and brace height.
- This particular bow has a rectangular cross section and no sinew on the sides. I think this is the easiest design to deal with. I can adjust the thickness and the width of the limbs without replacing any sinew.
I'm not sure how the originals were tillered (we don't have many full draw pics of NA's) but I think the center portion should be almost straight at full draw, with the string angle @ 90o to the tips. So far, that's the way I've been tillering all my bows of this type. There are some original bows with a very pronounced reflex in the middle (I'm not sure why) but most of the examples have a shallow reflex....making it reasonable to assume that this reflex straightens out in the majority of cases.
The grip I use has been called a Sioux grip (Laubin). The index finger takes most of the force and the others lend support. I don't use the ring finger at all with bows under 35#.
These bows are simple in design but are not easy to make. They require attention to detail, foresight, and a very good understanding of the wood you are working with. If you don't shape it just right, the wood's memory will come back to haunt you...and you'll have to live with it (you can't heat or steam the bow after the sinew is applied). Also, these bows intentionally push the wood to its limits. However, they have a certain artistic quality that makes them well worth the trouble.
(Let me know if you can't see the pics...I can make and album and post a direct link).
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Looks like a neat bow...Is it fast? I see you say the sinew appears to be more of a safety feature, have you sinewed any bows before where it did add speed and/or cast? You say it is ashe juniper, do you mean laminated ash and juniper or a species of juniper that is called ash juniper? Got me confused on that one.
~~Papa Matt
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Papa Matt, ashe juniper (Juniperus ashei) is a type of juniper that grows here in TX:
http://uvalde.tamu.edu/herbarium/juas.htm (http://uvalde.tamu.edu/herbarium/juas.htm)
This bow shoots a 320 gr arrow at about 138fps. I would say it's about average. The speed is slow compared to a longer draw bow, though.
I've sinewed other bows, maybe 6 or 7, and haven't noticed an increase in speed in any of them. But the sinew is only 1/16" thick.
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nice bow, the curves are :o
A design to keep in mind as i have some juniper but it is drying 5 hours drive away an i can't get it till x-mas ???
I have little knowledge of the design but it sure looks good to me even if its not historically accurate. ;D
Do you think the speed would increase a little with extra length and draw length. Like- 54" ntn and 27" draw?
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Thanks Josh....yeah, I think the speed would increase if made longer (and with a longer draw). I could also increase the width - which would allow me to increase the draw length....but the originals were narrow.
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If the arrow was primed to the bow the speed would pick up too, it looks far too heavy and long. I reckon it's probably average speed but it looks better than many bows. Including most of mine ;)
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Josh, the arrow is a composite....phragmites with a hardwood foreshaft. It's actually quite light (320 grains or about 21 grams).
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SUPER LIGHT THEN!
Most of mine are twice that so i guess its not too much of a difference.
At some stage ill have to make arrows like that
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coll little bow, nice handle working area
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Thanks Pirate
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Very nice bow, jackcrafty. Jawge
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Thanks George
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Very nice work , love the string . What did you cover the sinew with ?And Is that plum bark on the tips ?
Ralph
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Ralph, thanks, and no that's not plum bark...it's paint. I mixed red with a little bit of black and it ended up being a wine color. Originally the entire back was painted black...I added the reddish paint later. The entire bow is coated with 3 or 4 applications of pure tung oil. The string is pure sinew...with no coating of any kind.
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that is one cool little bow 8)
love that natural string too,a sinew string do you forsee any trouble with itin wet weather and or the longevity of it?
once again cool stick
tim
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Thanks Sailordad...yep, we all know what happens to sinew when it gets wet. So far, I haven't had a sinew string break (yet) but I've seen 'em stretch quite a bit in heavy humidity. The humidity can decrease the brace height by about an inch.
The strings wear out pretty quick but not where you might expect. My strings always start to wear at the point where I tie them at the bottom of the bow. Repeated adjustmets cause the string to fray badly. A string can survive a few dozen adjustments (or so).
Here's a pic of the bottom of the bow. (Sorry if it's a little blurry). You can kinda see the wear on the string.
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A lot of my time is devoted to processing sinew. I'm currently backing a few bows with sinew....here's some pics of my setup. Of course, no setup would be complete without an assistant....
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Part of the process is "trimming" the sinew. I taper the ends of the strands with a knife or scissors....this allows the strands to blend better with other stands.
The strands in the pics are thick (for bow backing) but I also trim the strands that I use for bowstrings, bow wrappings, and for hafting fletches and arrow points.
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(http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e279/bonney-weyers/DSCN5333.jpg)
Jackcrafty- I made one of these plains style double curves back in the last winter. Mine is 42" long, and made of dogwood. This picture shows the initial set-back. I put about 6 layers of whole deer backstrap in the handle, and tapered out the layers to end up with about 2 layers at the tips.
I thought if I made one, I would understand the design better, but still I'm not sure I do.
That's a really nice bow you've made. (sorry, I hope you don't mind that I put a picture of mine on your thread)
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Nice bow you got there! it looks to be tillered well and the lenght is just great. One problem though. You haven't got enough sinew on it. This may be the key reason for why it isn't performing better that you bows that have no sinew on them. In this case the sinew backing can be held as a safety precaution. To recive noticable benefits fron sinew backing in these bows one must put a lot of sinew on them. I suck at inches so I'm going to say my dimensions in centimerers. When you applied the sinew and it is still wet the layer sould be about 1.5 cm thik and tapering to the sides and tips. so the center of the bow would have the most amount of sinew.
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Orcbow, that bow you made will probably work (don't worry about posting the pic...I'm glad you did). I think the draw will be quite short, though....maybe 19".
Is it dry? Have you tried to brace it? I don't see any nocks....you might want to wrap sinew (or thread...temporarily) around the tips to form shoulder nocks, then try to brace it at 1/2" (yes, very low brace). 42" is not unusual for these bows, but the wood will be strained to the max...especially a stiff wood like dogwood.
I'm going to start a build-a-long on a double curve this week. It will be a copy of the bow in this thread.
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Finnish Native, yeah, there is very little sinew on the bow. You're right, more sinew might increase the performance. However, the originals have very little sinew...and since this is a reproduction, I didn't place a thick layer on the bow. IMO, there are three main reasons for not applying a thick layer of sinew:
1. One of the characteristics of many plains bows is that they are not complicated. (Horn bows are an exception, but these are few in number). On the examples I've seen, they appear to be sinewed with a single layer of very long stands of sinew (probably buffalo backstrap). A single layer of sinew is much easier to apply, not to mention faster.
2. There is the issue of weight. NA bows are sinewed from tip to tip...without exception, as far I can tell. Thickly sinewed bows from other cultures (like Korean bows) are sinewed only on the bending portion of the limbs. If I wanted to apply a thick layer of sinew on a NA reproduction bow, I would have to be very careful not to weigh down the non-bending tips. This would make the bow much more difficult and time consuming to build and, therefore, not likely to be common (see reason 1).
3. There were at least three excellent types of wood available to plains Indians (osage, hickory, juniper) that really don't need the added benefit of a thick layer of sinew.
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Jackcrafty, wasn't Ash a common bow wood of plains indians?
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I have made a slew of these an prety much agree with your observations. They are a great bow. Fun to shoot and take disipline to master. I would sugest that you give your a larger draw. You can get a 24-25" draw out of the bow that you are showing there. I have been making mone 42" long and drawing them to 24" and could probably go 25". That will get your performance up a bit.
I really agree with what you are sugesting with the stack......when you pull one of these bow it really lets you know when to stop. This is how I tiller mine. You can see in this picture that I try and get my limbs bent almost 90 degrees. If I were to darw that bow to 25" they would be.
(http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d114/yewarcher/fulldraw.jpg)
One other thing of note is unbraced profile. These bows are afully hard to shoot. One of the reasons is the balance between handel and tips.
If you take the 3 bows that are shown in the picture below. The bottom is by far the easist to shoot.
(http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d114/yewarcher/100_5991.jpg)
I beleive its because of the limb angles in the unbraced bow. The balance better in the hand then the top 2. I guess you could compare it to reflex vrs. a bow with some set. I have since swuitched all my new bows to that last profile. Glad to see some other bows of this sort being built.
Steve
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Papa Matt, I think ash was used by the Sioux (along with hickory). I don't think it was common, however, because in areas where ash was available, other wood such as mulberry, mesquite, ironwood, and white oak were used instead. Also, I think white ash is found mainly in the eastern woodlands? Other ash varieties are not as good as white ash.
Many descriptions of the wood used for plains bows simply say "whitewood".....and I guess many assume ash was used.
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YewArcher...you are a braver man that I am!;D I would not dare strain my bows beyond what would cause 1-1/2" of set. I put too much effort into them...and I hate starting over when one breaks. ;)
When I said 90o, I meant the angle of the sting angle compared to the limb, not the limb angle compared to the handle. (Am I reading you right?)
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That is true what you said there. I have read that the plains indians used to do so that they tare the tendons into thin strips as you did and what must be done. then they would sort them out into bundles of say 20 threads according to lenght. then those bundles were one by one soaked in water and then in glue and applied on the back of the bow. this manner was done through out the bow as bricks are made into walls. of course the tips would have far more less sinew than the handle area so that the tips would not become too heavy. then an other layer was done the same way but the new bundles would be put between (still ontop) the lower bundles so that it would eventually make a crown on top ot the back of the bow.
I made one bow sinewing it like this. I had a thread about it here, but I no longer seem to find it.. It was named "a sinew backed rowan" or something like that.
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lol.....i am not that brave. I really belive that the bows were meant to be drawn that way. That is when they are most efficiant and is why....(IMHO)......the bow is designed the way it is. The bow that you see on the bottom of that picture has about 1/2" of set from the original shape. Thats not overstraining the bow at all. The top 2 bows have about 3/4" set from original shape. They are well within a safe durable margin. I mean 90degress so that the limbs are alomst flat at full draw. As shown in the picture 90degrees from the handel plane. i have now made 13 of these bows in this fashion and they all shoot great and have not had a failure. The limbs can take it.
Steve
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Jackcrafty- Yes, I did finish my bow, here are 2 more pictures- I draw about 17", though I need to take a full draw pic. I had trouble with the sinew, as it dried it all came up separating at the wood. I glued in down again, but had to forfeit the extra inch of reflex that it gained. I used knox gelatin for my glue, but I think I made it too weak at first.
If I did one of these bows again I would use a lighter weight and more elastic wood. I had the "classic" problem making a short bow from strong wood, I couldn't get it to bend, so I kept scraping and scraping, and next thing I knew it was too much. Maybe dogwood is not very elastic (I'll have to look into that) .
(http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e279/bonney-weyers/DSCN5790.jpg)
(http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e279/bonney-weyers/DSCN5793.jpg)
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Orcbow, that bow looks awesome. ;D This is how I solve the problem of sinew separating itself from the wood as it dries. What you are looking at is polypropylene twine on one of my new bows under contruction (polypropylene won't stick to the glue) It leaves ridges in the sinew but at least it will be firmly attached. (The third pic shows my bow's back with the telltale ridges).
IMO, the best woods for short double-curve plains style bows are osage, juniper, elm, mulberry, and black locust. Your dogwood bow would have worked better with less deflex and more bending in the handle...but, of course, you know that now.
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My bow doesn't bend in the handle at all.So that takes care of some of the potential draw length. Really, I did not know what thickness to start with. And I was going for a bow like my Lakota friend told me in a story/legend about a Lakota hunter named "Strikes Two" (if I remember correctly). Any way the story was about how he got his name, by shooting through a buffalo cow and killing also her calf with one arrow. That must have been a pretty strong bow! Any way it was close range and on horseback.
So my bow turned out to be barely 20#. Maybe I could kill two squirrels at close range ::)
The red paint on the back is made of the dust from working red pipestone mixed with the knox gelatin glue. I sealed over it with shellac, but I think the mineral paint alone would be pretty good in a primitive situation.
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I like how there are several people posting their bows. It makes this thread interesting.
I am interested in short bows in general, so these are on my list. :)
I have never done much sinew backing, so that is a bit of a barrier for me at the moment.
Sean
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Jackcrafty, do you think BL is a good wood for short plains bows such as these? Even sinewed? I ask because I have come across some other opinions that do not think BL would handle the compression very well, as it likes to chrysal on the belly.
I have a short (52") BL log and have been looking for something to make one of these bows with, and sinew it. What do you think? I also have Elm, Cherry, and White Ash and Honey Locust.
~~Papa Matt
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Black locust should work fine...the chrysals on the belly will not hurt performance if they are evenly distributed. If the back is crowned or "trapped" it will help reduce the stress on the belly (which should be flat).
The way I tiller a double-curve is basically the same way I tiller a D-bow. All parts of the bow share the bending stress except the non-bending portion of the tips. I've got two locust bows in the works (the staves came from a hybrid, non-thorny black locust) and so far the wood has not chrysalled.
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Right on, thanks for the advice.
~~Matt
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Crafty, Very nice bow. Really admire your string making ability. Laubin was the first book I found on primitive archery about 15 yrs ago. Thanks to the other fellows who added so much to this thread. All are nice bows.
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Thanks Xin ;D
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Hello all , i LOVE the bows, im just wondering if you shaped the bow from a stave then tillered it, or got it to a point where you could just sand it and finish tiller it, or how, im needing advice, ive read a few books, but nothing much, and i cannot get how to get the bows weight through my head any advice??
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Wow, I haven't seen this thread in a while. :) Kurogane, post your question as a new thread and I'm sure you will get the answers you are looking for. As for my bow, the one in this thread, I tillered it a little before I shaped it and then finished tillering it after I let it sit for a day or so (I think). I need to go back and read this.... :o
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Wow, I haven't seen this thread in a while. :) Kurogane, post your question as a new thread and I'm sure you will get the answers you are looking for. As for my bow, the one in this thread, I tillered it a little before I shaped it and then finished tillering it after I let it sit for a day or so (I think). I need to go back and read this.... :o
HAHAHAHA thanks Jack, yah i didnt expect anyone to comment back LOL, i was wondering, now i know i can do a rough shaping before tillering then i can finish it befor it so the tillering with the small striang
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Sounds good. :)
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Great looking bow. Looks very Apache. Suggestions for a faster bow. Sinew back it before tillering, and for a juniper bow that narrow use more sinew. This should also allow for a longer draw with a higher draw weight. Juniper is the wood I use the most as it is everywhere around here. In my dry climate it needs sinew for a long life. Juniper is a great compression wood. Other people posting there bows have to realize juniper will not make a bow as easily as yew or osage but when made right makes a great bow