Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Minuteman on July 27, 2008, 12:49:26 pm
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Kegan started a thread here a while ago asking questions about ELB's made from woods not normally considered " good" for that style of bow.
Heres a link:
http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,8232.0.html
I have always been interested in making whitewood bows that didn't fit the mold. So in that light, I was wondering if folks might be interested in a challenge of sorts wherein you make an ELB out of a whitewood( or anything not normally considered a LB wood: locust, elm ,ERC (anything non tropical (that excludes Ipe,)ash, maple, oak ,or whatever. The idea being to stretch ourselves and maybe discover something new about the way so called "second string wood" responds to long bow style limbs.
Who's in?
Lets set up some general guidelines for what the bows will and won't be .
Anybody got some ideas?
I'm thinking the limbs don't necessarily need to be D shaped but we need to have a limb width you can't go over or we are getting into flatbow territory.
Anyone interested?
Chris
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Why not stick with the 5/8 rule but no horn nocks. Steve
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This sounds like a fun idea Chris. Just the sort of thing to liven up the dog days of summer. :)
Badger, I don't think I understand what you mean by the "5/8 rule" ? ??? No horn nocks required is a good idea since the question/challenge is about the wood...Guess I'd better start reading up on ELBs while I'm on the Mids next week.
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It means the limb cross section is 5/8ths as thick as it is wide. I agree no horn nocks, but allow overlays, and modern strings..
Distance shooting could be part of the challenge, perhaps shooting the full length of the field at Mojam next summer..or be part of the conclusion..Something like the Hatchet bow style contest..But this is long term..
Posting of bows which fit the category might be good especially for the new bowyers who want to participate...
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I got a fairly heavy ash one on the go, but i have modified it. It has a partially rounded belly but is mostly square. It is 80" long for a 32" draw length but i may pike it. I will tell you how it comes out. Only problem is i don't think it quite follows the ratio. It is about 1.5-2" across at the middle, can't remember and so far about 1" thick, but i need to start tillering first before true dimensions are here. I have the week off so i hope to get this done by at least friday. I won't be adding horn nocks but maybe horn or wood tips. Is this allowed. I was thinking about bulletwood ore ipe but if it is against the rules i won't for the time being?
Josh
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just went and measured. It is 1.5" across which i think is fair.
Anything less and it will probably take considerable set, anything more and it would be far out of the 5-8 rule you have set.
Josh
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Josh, what kind of draw weight are you looking for on this bow? Steve
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OK the 5/8 as thick as the limb is wide is a viable guideline. Don't wanna set up a buncha rules really just general guidelines so we are comparing apples to apples you know. Too many rules and folks won't wanna participate.
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The 5/8 rule would be the most basic requirement for making an elb, I don't think it would matter what kind of tips anyone chose as long as there was not set requirement. Steve
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I'm going for anything between 50 and 70lbs probably towards the heavier end now i am getting more experienced. Just been tillering on the long string and it pulls 50lbs at the brace height, 6" of limb travel.
Why do you ask?
Josh
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as for the rules: can the bows be made of laminations? I have some white oak laminations which are 72" long ( i think) and some white ash which are 68" long...I could glue them up straight and make an elb...
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I would think that would be alright, Radius. it won't do to compare a laminated LB to a self backed one though. Not that its a competition either way.
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I was just curious Josh, I thought you might be building a war bow. Steve
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Count me in! I will need to pick up some white woods though. Is there a time line on the project?
David T
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Lets just make it an ongoing thread :).
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Steve
human nature is curiosity, i was thinking about a warbow of about 100lbs but then i couldn't use it and it would be a wall hanger or party peice to see who was the strongest. If i made a war bow it would be a heavy and probably made from a normally classified wood like yew or a lamination. Perhaps this will show that it can be done with other woods.
Josh
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Not positive hhb would be considered a white wood but I think it is at least as good as yew for war bows possibly even superior. Steve
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I think i have some of that stuff around here, i'll check the internet!
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I've been wanting to build an Elb so I'm in. Besides the 5/8's rule and no horn nocks are their any other rules?
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I am interested in this but will need assistance. I am SEVERELY math challenged so I will need more clarification on the 5/8 rule. Can someone help a poor idjut out?
Also to clarify, backed bows are ok? I have a good HBH blank already glued up, if it fits the rule I can finish it out.
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I'm not always good at math either . So I'll give it a febble attempt.
The 5/8 is just a ratio of the thickness of the bow (the 5) to the width of the bow ( the 8) . They are saying that when you put the thickness of your bow over the width of your bow , the resulting fraction has to be equal to or greater than 5/8 ,,in order be a ELB.
Is that close guys ?
Ralph
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That's one way of putting it Ralph.
HHB will make a true ELB in fact it will make a darn good warbow, so will Elm but the Elm has to be good and dense to make a warbow.
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I am in. I am convinced that hickory will make a nice elb style bow. I have one in the works and will add it to this discussion as I get it tillerd over the next few days.
SJM
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With regards to horn nocks they just shouldn't be a requirement, you can use them if you wish..Their should be a separate category for backed and laminate bows as well..Even if using whitewood laminates as they can have a distinct advantage over self longbows..
Skeaterbait, look at it this way, if 8/8th's is a square inch 5/8th's is a cross section which is an inch wide, and 5/8th's of an inch thick.
Rich
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It means the limb cross section is 5/8ths as thick as it is wide. I agree no horn nocks, but allow overlays, and modern strings.
Sorry I can't help it but I am also a math geek. So here is a clarification of the formula quoted above....
Say that you make a bow that is 1 inch wide. Multiply 1 x 5/8 (or .625 when expressed as a number rather than a fraction) equals .625. Okay so what that means is that a bow that is 1 inch wide must be no more than 5/8 of an inch (or .625) thick.
Some other sizes would be: 1 1/2 inches wide (1.5 x .625= .9375) equals 15/16" thick
1 1/4 inches wide (1.25 x .625= .78125) equals 25/32" thick (in between 3/4" and 13/16")
Hope that helps. Maybe a professor at MIT could do better.
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Maybe someone already makes these , but a set of dividers preset to 5/8 ratio could be a useful tool to longbow guys.
like this.
[attachment deleted by admin]
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Sorry I can't help it but I am also a math geek. So here is a clarification of the formula quoted above....
Say that you make a bow that is 1 inch wide. Multiply 1 x 5/8 (or .625 when expressed as a number rather than a fraction) equals .625. Okay so what that means is that a bow that is 1 inch wide must be no more than 5/8 of an inch (or .625) thick.
Some other sizes would be: 1 1/2 inches wide (1.5 x .625= .9375) equals 15/16" thick
1 1/4 inches wide (1.25 x .625= .78125) equals 25/32" thick (in between 3/4" and 13/16")
Hope that helps. Maybe a professor at MIT could do better.
Orcbow, this is perfect, I pretty much understand it from Rich's explanation but you hit the numbers on the head, almost exactly, my blank is 1 1/8" wide and 7/8" deep. Assuming my understanding is on target, that should fall right in the mix of it.
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It is ok to make it thicker than 5/8 just never go below the 5/8 rule, 1 to 1 near the handle is not unusaul.
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http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,7658.0.html
Hows that?
Grant
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Grant, that bow is a beauty!! Steve
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would cherry make a good elb. It is good in compression. I was thinking about backing one of my 2 cherry staves to get a nice short bow but the other is open to experiments. Does it need to be backed because i know it is weaker in tension and good in compression.
Josh
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would cherry make a good elb. It is good in compression. I was thinking about backing one of my 2 cherry staves to get a nice short bow but the other is open to experiments. Does it need to be backed because i know it is weaker in tension and good in compression.
Josh
actually, i think cherry has a bad reputation all around...
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I thought cherry was good, Tim baker had a very good bow from cherrry, i remember reading it in tbb 1 i think
Josh
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(http://home.comcast.net/~dcm4/Old%20Bow%20Stuff/elb.JPG)
This hickory (southern red probably, definately one of the shagbarks) bow is so old I almost hate to post the pic. I KNOW some of ya'll must have seen it 1000 times already. Was amoung probably the 1st 10 or 12 bows I ever made. 1 3/16" wide, perhaps less, as I recall. Follows the 5/8 rule, 76" Ntn for 70# @ 29" at the time. Have retillered it in the last couple of years. Seems like the lower limb came up soft somewhere along the way. May have been a moisture thing, my hot box is verticle. Was my clout shoot bow for every Mojam so far. Buying only 12 shots each year, I've been to the prize table at least 1/2 the times I entered. It did not want for cast, as I recall it. I know at least a few folks have commented on same at the shoots.
I've learned a lot in the intervening years. No question white wood will make a 5/8 bow. Moisture control is the only real issue.
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unfortunately I don't have any pics or the specs (which I did have at one time) but a buddy of mine has made several narrow hickory longbows.
I do remember commenting to a mutual friend that the bows were no more than an inch wide and one bow that I shot drew 55# at my 26" draw length.
I also remember the bowyer stating that one of the long-armed guys in the club had drawn one of those bows to 29" or more when shooting it and that there were no ill effects.
He did mention that he had heat treated those bows as well.
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So does the 5/8 rule basically separate flat bows from ELB's?
If the ratio is less than 1 to 5/8 then it is in flat bow teritory, and if the ratio is 1 to 5/8 or more then it is an ELB?
I have made a nice, hard hitting, 50# bow from cherry, though it is a flat bow, not a long bow. Will post a pic later. It is backed with heavy canvas.
I have read that Sassafras will make an ELB. This was said by no less than Erret Callahan, who was a founding member of the society of primitive technology. I am going to try to make one for this challenge (if I can get my hands on a good stave or board)
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Grant, that bow is a beauty!! Steve
It bends too much in the handle, I think that plus the increased moisture from my hand resting on it there has caused a couple of small crystals. I have another mostly roughed-out that I will leave longer and tiller with more bend in the outer limbs.
But thanks for the comment!
Grant
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I'm in of course (sorry it took me so long, been out for a few days).
Might take me a while. Wanted to do a simple build along, from tree to finished bow, for some other young archers (compounders) on Archerytalk. So it would be a fw months for dry time :P.
So, for the 5/8 rule, a 1 1/2" bow would be about 1" deep? Sounds simple enough :).
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kegan, the ratio would have to stay the same (i'm guessing) along the entire length of the limb. So, if it were 1" wide at the fades, it would be 5/8 deep there...moving toward the tip, the limb would become narrower and thinner proportionately. I've never made one, but I will for this project, and i think that's how we're supposed to do it.
My blank is made of white oak: 72" long, a 5/8" belly piece with natural reflex and a 3/16" backing lam of the same wood. I bought the board about a month ago and used this method:
It is 2" thick, plain sawn lumber. I ran it over the jointer to get a clean face and clean edge, and then tablesawed various widths off the edge. These pieces are all edge-grained.
Last night I glued the pieces together and when the glue was dry I cleaned them up and cut the stave down to rough dimensions. Let the games begin!
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5/8 is just the minimum thickness, it can be thicker and often will need to be. I don't think it would have to be uniform either. The tiller shape you decide on would determine that. Steve
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i think where people might be getting confused is in the expression of the ratio
5:8 (which we know is the way a ratio is expressed)
as opposed to
5/8 (which is most easily seen as a fraction of an inch)
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I've made Cherry elb styles from both a flat belly and a crowned one..I backed them both with leather..the flatter belly had a slight speed advantage, but that was more the density of the woods, and the relative humidity than the design..
DCM, I think I shot that bow when I met you years ago...
Rich
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Its good to know cherry works. If it was long enough could it be a self bow say 80" for a 30" draw.
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Lets not make the mistake of calling a flat bellied longbow an English Longbow. An ELB has a D section limb and though many wood species will make a D section longbow they will also follow the string excessively.
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Well I started tillerin on one tonite. It may be a little short at only 66''. It's a little less than 1 1/4 wide. I think this dogwood is gonna hold up to it pretty well. I may need some help from you long bow guys on my tiller. I've never built one that bends through the handle.
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Marc has a good point. A flat bellied bow as far as I know was NOT an english style LB. So I'll change the name of the thread. Flat bellies are still ok. I'm thinking about a squashed elipse myself.
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Well mine is pretty much tillered and done. Mine has a round belly and has took some set but not too bad I don't guess. It has taken bout 2''s worth. It's 50 lbs. at 28''.
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Marc has a good point. A flat bellied bow as far as I know was NOT an english style LB. So I'll change the name of the thread. Flat bellies are still ok. I'm thinking about a squashed elipse myself.
I'm thinking you should leave it as is Chris. That will make the challenge much more interesting
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Rich,
You did shoot that bow, probably the first year it was made, perhaps the second. I narrowed the outer limb when I retillered it, and improved it's manners considerably. I don't recall what it was when I made it, or whether I even had a target in mind, but I weighted it some time later, probably during a dry spell, and was surprised at the draw weight. Got me curious what's up with in now, but no point even thinking about working with it in this climate. I'm having trouble keeping RH below 55%, at best!
I'm not sure one can pinpoint a precise, specific "ELB" design. We have the Marry Rose artifacts and then on the other end of the spectrum the "yard bows" from the late 19th century which survive as model, but they differ significantly.
I say if it follows the 5 part thickness to 8 parts width rule, you are good regardless of how much crown the belly has. I'm not convinced English bowyer's where so homogeneous, or that an arched belly has any particular benefit to warrant it's universal use. But it's ya'lls contest, and I most likely won't enter anyway. I know Marc is a great bowyer, and in particular at the top of the game in this design, but I'm not sure the premise holds that an arched belly has to follow the string excessively. I think you can add lenght to compensate. May not optimize cast, but would still be effective.
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The same woods that give me trouble with flatbows give me trouble chrysaling in elbs. Cherry, locust, ash. I don't believe a well made elb has to be under any more stress than a flatbow. Lots more bending limb to work with. Steve
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Try a shallow radius on the belly for an ELB out of white wood. The High radius of Victorian erra bows stresses the limbs more. I also heard from one of the guys who studied the Marry Rose bows that the bow bellies verried from almost square to and almost V like Belly. So it could very from one maker to the next and was not standard across the board. Most likely our perception of what an ELB was is formed from target bows of the Victorian erra and needs to be re-thought. Also, might want to try the mass principle on this and increase the length of the bows to compensate for weaker white woods than yew since we can't increase the limb width.
David T
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Heres a link to a site that has info on an ELB that may have had a rectangular cross section( paragraph 29"the Mendlesham bow")
http://margo.student.utwente.nl/sagi/artikel/longbow/longbow.html
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i think where people might be getting confused is in the expression of the ratio
5:8 (which we know is the way a ratio is expressed)
as opposed to
5/8 (which is most easily seen as a fraction of an inch)
So...Which one is correct? Because there is a difference. And does anyone know where this rule came from? I may have confused some people. The way I read the original mention of this rule was that the thickness of the bow was 5/8 of the width. As a ratio this would be 1 : 5/8. If the other way is correct then there should be 5 thicknesses to every 8 widths. If you divide each side by 8, (remember algebra?) then 8/8=5/8. You can then simplify 8/8 to 1 and then you are right back to where we started.....
Sorry if I made you even more confused!! ???
You only confused yourself. They are essentially the same thing. One is a ratio, the other is a ratio that you decided to compare to an inch. We are using 5/8 as a ratio of whatever width you choose to start with, that is why it doesn't have a " after it to designate inch. You might have a little problem if you decide to make a bow 1" wide all the way to the tips. ;)
I like Marc's idea to leave it ELB. It sounds like a challenge. That means I'm in. 8) I think Ill go more 7/8 though. Justin
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In TBB vol. 3, Tim Baker talks about how we may have had the wrong idea about the original ELB's- they would simply cut out the bow, round the edges, and poof, a slightly rounded (due to their large size) Longbow.
Also, it would have been a thing of ecenomics (sp?). take a tree, split it a bunco of times, and you have several pie-shaped staves, none of which could really provide a truly falt belly without coming in way under weight for their needs.
Saxton Pope also wrote that many people argued, even then, about the belly- whether it should be slightly radiused or deeply stacked. He said that the former was more durable, but soft in cast (I;m assuming this is more because of the lack of mass than anything else), where as the latter was much prefered for targt bows- not really hunting bows.
Either way, I'm in. I think that heat tempered hickory or hornbeam could hold up to either, I'll just have to see what sort of stave I've got to work with. I know that the elm I have around here needs to be slightly lighter to take the deeply round belly though.
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Count me in.
I'm working on a muscle-wood elb at the moment. Also have a black-gum in the works, and always elm.
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Count me in.
I'm working on a muscle-wood elb at the moment. Also have a black-gum in the works, and always elm.
Are they going to be some of your heavier ones? If so, what are the rough dimensions?
I'm not cheating, I'm learning ;D.
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AAAAALrighty then I'll switch it back.Sure wish you fellers would make up your minds ;)
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I may be confused, but not about math! I know the difference between a fraction and a ratio. I was trying to point out how a guy could apply that ratio to any width that they had. And I am guilty of a making a bad math joke...... >:D
I deleted it.
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AAAAALrighty then I'll switch it back.Sure wish you fellers would make up your minds ;)
We're wooden bow makers. If we could make up our minds, we would all be shooting just one bow, of othe proper design ;).
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Let me look up the facts on the "proper" elb requirements and I'll post them. I've got every book on the subject. OCD you know. LOL
Anyway here are two white wood elbs made last month, I think??? The 1st is crepe-myrtle and it's only 55# at 28".
(http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/thimosabv/4-cali-02.jpg)
(http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/thimosabv/4cali-4.jpg)
(http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/thimosabv/4cali-1.jpg)
The second is an elm heavy elb I'm sending to Manny. It is 90# at 28" his draw-length.
(http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/thimosabv/Aloha-handle-1.jpg)
(http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/thimosabv/Aloha-handle-2.jpg)
(http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/thimosabv/MANNY-01.jpg)
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i love that crepe-myrtle man. and i hadnt seen the "faux yew" stain job on Manny's bow. pretty sweet!
Phil
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I may be confused, but not about math! I know the difference between a fraction and a ratio. I was trying to point out how a guy could apply that ratio to any width that they had. And I am guilty of a making a bad math joke...... >:D
I deleted it.
dude, what's the math joke?
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Heres a bow made by David Mims. I gave him a piece of hackberry several years ago, and the following year he brought back this hackberry ELB. 72", 50lb@28", very nice shooter and straight as a string after unbracing. My wife immediately took a liking to it, and she's shot it quite a bit over the last few years. In fact she competed in this year's MOJAM clout shoot with it. Its the one on the right in the first two photos. It has a "classical" ELB profile, flat back and arched belly. It has a little bit of a stiff handle, just slightly deeper but nto really what I'd call Buchanan dips.
[attachment deleted by admin]
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Next one is something I made but never quite finished. Its hickory, 72", 50lb@28". The stave had a little kink in it right in the center, I made that the handle so it has a touch of deflex there. The other slightly interesting aspect of this for me, was it had a little knot on the belly side and I dug out the punky wood and filled it with epoxy mixed with sawdust. Its worked fine. Tips on this one are quite skinny. Now the confession, the cross-section is elliptical and the ratio is 0.6 (1.25x0.75), slightly under your requirement of 0.625 but worth a peak I thought. Someday I'll put a handle on it, it really deserves better than its spot in the bow bin. Its the bow on the left in the first two pics.
[attachment deleted by admin]
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Tom very nice bows there. It's funny my wife also gravitated to the elb type bow. It has an enchantanting beauty to it that one cannot deny like it or not.
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Hopefully there's a couple of 80-90 # ELB's in the 4 staves on the left
(http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d124/NorthShoreLB/024.jpg)
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Heres a link to a site that has info on an ELB that may have had a rectangular cross section( paragraph 29"the Mendlesham bow")
http://margo.student.utwente.nl/sagi/artikel/longbow/longbow.html
And to think that i live about 10 mins from here and vist the place at lest once a week!!!!!!!! And have never been told or seen the thing??????
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Those are the kinda pics we need on this thread to get folks motivated. Thanks guys. Beautiful work on all of the bows. :)
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Lennie I'd be surprised if that hackberry would pass the 5:8 test. I recall it being a pretty wide bow, 1 3/16" maybe. Hackberry is light as a feather. Your hickory bow bends fantastic. Might even consider a pike job if you wanted more draw weight. And it certainly deserves a handle wrap. Same string? Lazy bastid. LOL
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How about Manny's strawberry guava? I've been planning to make a warbow out of that stuff for a long time!
David T
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I've got a question- why is are woods not considered ELB woods? From all the photos, it seems they work fine. Is it how ELB's used to be made (sting it up, bring it down after you get full draw)? Or has heat treating simply fixed the problem of compression strength now?
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Keegan, I just finished researching and traditionally as in back nearly 3,000 years or more woods other than yew have been made into the elb design. Oak, elm, and even Scotch-Pine have all been used. Personally I think there were years of wood "black-balling" by the yew-wood El' eatists. Just as once we had the same with the Osage-faction based here in the States. In their eyes we are seen as heretics and they would love to tie us to a stake and burn us with our own inferior staves. Thats a bad thing for those of us who have enough stocked wood to make a long lasting pyre.
Now as to "rules" the only one I go by is the depth of the bows limbs should never be less than 3/4" difference from the thickness of the same area.
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Kegan, Like Thimo said, It's primarily historical dogma spread by those with agendas, perhaps limited bow wood to use like only osage or yew, and the lack of knowledge/open mindedness to give other woods a legitimate shot...
Every environment has woods which will perform best "in general" Osage for example is good in humidity, and its humid where it grows, but take it to 100+ temps and sub zero/ very low mc%, and you are much better off with hickory, elm, guava..tension woods since your osage bow could very well end up in pieces with prolonged exposure. This many of us have seen first hand..
And most white woods don't do well in humid conditions..
its these variables which help those with "agendas" drive their "point" home as well. At mojam I picked up some fine elm, and osage since where I live is as near a perfect condition for bow woods as there is, and thus my signature elaborates this point..
They all work good, if you have a clue ;)
Rich-
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Interesting Thimo, so that brings the 5/8 rule to 6/8, but the cross section could be perfectly flat,...did I get this rigth ?
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Yes there are rectangular cross-sections on even some of the Mary-Rose bows, corners rounded of-course. I've made both deep rounded and flatter-squarish-rounded and like them equally. It's really about what the stave has to say in my opinion.
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You kind of have to wonder, since there is no recorded methodology, do you suppose the craftsman mearly started with a chunk of wood and whittled until it bent right. After all, the bows were quite often discarded on the battlefield once the arrow supply was spent.
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why do you think the bows were discarded? That seems unlikely...?
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More likely they threw them down to draw thier other weapons and retrieved the bow after if it was still in one piece. More like divest until you can go get it.
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Perhaps discarded was a bad choice in words, but yes the archer also carried swords so that once the arrows were used up they would join in the more personal of warfare. With that in mind if you consider that battles consisted of 1000's of soldiers on each side, what are the odds that the bow would get retrieved. I am sure some of them were picked up and reimplemented but how many?
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depends how many archers survived the swordplay!
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why do you think the bows were discarded? That seems unlikely...?
Because a 6' long stick would slow me down when running from a horse. ;)
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right you are, JS, right you are!
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I think a cool experiment would be to make about 12 different bows all from different woods, make the demensions and the tapers all identical. Ignore the draw weight and just let it come out as it may. Say 74" long for a 30" draw and 1 1/4 wide at the handle to 1/2" tips. I would almost bet the draw weights would range from about 50# to 130#.
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Steve that sounds perfect.
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I love how much I'm learning from this challenge :).
Okay, I've got a sassafras bow in the works. I'm hoping it'll be thick enough for an ELB style bow, but I haven't started playing with the thickness yet. My question is, can this bow tolerate a width of 1 3/8" fom midl limb to midlimb (semi-Saxton Pope dimensions) and still reach 85# at 28"? It's 6' long, will be about 1 1/4" thick at the grip, and heat tempered (and backed cause sassafras still scares me a bit :D). What do you guys think?
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Kegan, get the bow just bending a small amount and then see how much it weighs. If you get it bending through the handle elb style it should take a lot of weight but I am not familar with sasafrass.
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Thanks! At the moment, it's still pretty much a piece of tree, so I'm thinking I'll be able to get the weight I want. Trouble is going slowly during the roughing out :-X ;)!
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Having survived the whitewood wars, and being new and naive during that period, I have perhaps a different perspective than many folks seem to have. I didn't have enough experience at the time to have any real bias, if anything in favor of the WW side, and I think folks would judge me to be generally openminded. Please don't be offended any of you by my comments. I only hope my reputation will make you think about what I write, as I intend it sincerely for good, versus contraversy for sport.
My perspective is the whitewood proponents (predominantly one person with lots of followers) a) had an predisposition to be "right" regardless of the discussion, b) had a huge chip on their shoulder c) wanted to make a name for himself. As a consequence the method of argumentation used was largely logical fallacy, versus presenting "clean" science. Specifically, the idea that osage proponents discounted completely the use of whitewood was a straw man. Rather, proponents of osage judged it to be only "better." The rest was hyperbole by the WW side to counter, to discount, this inescapable reality. Now don't get me wrong, by better I don't mean on the one hand a score of 100 and the other a score of 1. More like 100 versus 99.9. And obviously context is very, very important, perhaps the only important aspect. But the fact remains, for most of us who hunt and live in a humid climate, who will make 10s or 100s of bow over a course of years for that purpose, those ho generally have easy access to it, bascially if you live on the East side of the Rocky mountains, osage is a better choice. Yes, WW works great in low humidty but so does osage. Yes, osage is more fragile in extremely low humidity, but only a few of us have that concern. Yes, there are cases where WW, even red oak boards from your local home center really are the best choice, but not the majority of cases. That I think was the argument promoted by the osage side. One not entertained seriously, honestly, by the WW side IMHO, for reasons which I think tend to not work in our favor over the long haul.
So, when one is tempted to think or promote the idea the osage side of the WW war had some insideous agenda to keep you from making bows of elm, please reconsider. In fact, folks on the osage side might well have made more elm bows than you have, and understood all to well it's strenghts, and weaknesses.
Sorry for the hijack. I reckon I got my stinger out a little. And for what it's worth, assuming one can control moisture content reasonable easily which is a given for most home crafters today, I'd much prefer good elm over osage to build an elb style bow of 80# or less.
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David, very good well thought out post. I find the same as you regarding osage elbs below about 75#. In my view osage or other dense woods will not really make a proper 50# elb any longer than about 64" at the most. At 75# a 64" osage elb can be a dream bow. You can play with the tiller and make them stiffer through the center but are they still truly an elb at that point? I use a lot of osage and I also use a lot of white woods. Osage in my view has to be at the top of the list when you list all the possible attributes in order of importance. Whre I live along the coast I consider hickory just one step above junkwood, if I lived 20 miles further inland I would probably make hickory one of my main bow woods. Design is everything when it comes to bows and we can't ignore the wood we are working with when designing a bow. I think if we have a particular design we would like to build we have the tools and knowledge now to select woods that will best suit that design. If we allready have the wood I think it a good idea to design bows around the wood. Steve
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Having survived the whitewood wars, and being new and naive during that period, I have perhaps a different perspective than many folks seem to have. I didn't have enough experience at the time to have any real bias, if anything in favor of the WW side, and I think folks would judge me to be generally openminded. Please don't be offended any of you by my comments. I only hope my reputation will make you think about what I write, as I intend it sincerely for good, versus contraversy for sport.
My perspective is the whitewood proponents (predominantly one person with lots of followers) had an predisposition to a) be "right" regardless of the discussion, b) had a huge chip on their soldier c) wanted to make a name for himself. As a consequence the method of argumentation used was largely logical fallacy, versus presenting "clean" science. Specifically, the idea that osage proponents discounted completely the use of whitewood was a straw man. Rather, proponents of osage judged it to be only "better." The rest was hyperbole by the WW side to counter, to discount, this inescapable reality. Now don't get me wrong, by better I don't mean on the one hand a score of 100 and the other a score of 1. More like 100 versus 99.9. And obviously context is very, very important, perhaps the only important aspect. But the fact remains, for most of us who hunt and live in a humid climate, who will make 10s or 100s of bow over a course of years for that purpose, those ho generally have easy access to it, bascially if you live on the East side of the Rocky mountains, osage is a better choice. Yes, WW works great in low humidty but so does osage. Yes, osage is more fragile in extremely low humidity, but only a few of us have that concern. Yes, there are cases where WW, even red oak boards from your local home center really are the best choice, but not the majority of cases. That I think was the argument promoted by the osage side. One not entertained seriously, honestly, by the WW side IMHO, for reasons which I think tend to not work in our favor over the long haul.
So, when one is tempted to think or promote the idea the osage side of the WW war had some insideous agenda to keep you from making bows of elm, please reconsider. In fact, folks on the osage side might well have made more elm bows than you have, and understood all to well it's strenghts, and weaknesses.
Sorry for the hijack. I reckon I got my stinger out a little. And for what it's worth, assuming one can control moisture content reasonable easily which is a given for most home crafters today, I'd much prefer good elm over osage to build an elb style bow of 80# or less.
??? ??? ??? "There's a lot of big words in there miss, we're not but humble pirates" ::)
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I appreciate the tellin Mims. I ain't one to say ones better or worse. I can say I've made more good bows out of osage than any WW but then again I can only make bows out of the wood I have. I'm almost out of osage and I got TONS of hikree so.... I think I'll start makin bows out of hikree. That is, after I have the surgery on my elbow .....torn tendons suck :'( Probably be fully recovered by March I figure.I'll start makin My WW ELB then fellers. :D
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Dang Chris, did not realize you had a bummed up elbow. Hope it works out ok. Plumb till March sounds pretty ominous. Hope it doesn't much impair you, although I don't see how one could navigate bow hunting with a broken wing of any kind. Might have to warm up the raffle this year, reckon?
Ya'll ain't got osage trees, or jess ain't able for wood cuttin' of any kind?
To be honest I've made so many osage bows and it's real pleasure when I work with something else, in particular nice straight grained stuff like hickory. Made a couple last Spring and it was fun to break out the old spokeshave, for example. Been getting a heap of shop time here in the last few weeks, more probably than in recent years. Have probably 5 or 6, all osage selfbows, in various stages of completion. Feels good to know I still have some of that fire still left in my belly.
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DCM- I think most of us admit that Osage is the better wood. We can jsut make good bows out of the whitewoods too- which makes the wood more appealing when that's all you have got ;D! Can't see how anyone's feeling would get hurt by such a statement, I know mine aren't.
Question though. Can Osage make a 6' ELB still? I'm in need of good dry wood so I'm tempted to see if I can trade for a piece, but would really like to try for a long ELB-ish style bow. Possible?
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DCM- I think most of us admit that Osage is the better wood. We can jsut make good bows out of the whitewoods too- which makes the wood more appealing when that's all you have got ;D! Can't see how anyone's feeling would get hurt by such a statement, I know mine aren't.
Question though. Can Osage make a 6' ELB still? I'm in need of good dry wood so I'm tempted to see if I can trade for a piece, but would really like to try for a long ELB-ish style bow. Possible?
I happen to know someone who has a couple of sticks that just might do that. ::) ;)
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Hey Chris,
I did not know you are on the "disabled" list too this summer... :(
Maybe you and Tracy can get together and one of ya hold the bow while the other draws and releases, kind of a Bowzooka... ;D
Sure am gleaning a lot of info from everyone here on the subject, from what I have read and seen here it would appear that we have some very talented folks making some fine bows out of whatever they can get wherever they may be. Sort of like how it must have been back long ago...
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Kegan I've made over 10 sasafrass elbs 4 of them are over 80#. It makes a great elb.
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Kegan I've made over 10 sasafrass elbs 4 of them are over 80#. It makes a great elb.
Excellent, thanks Thimo. If anyone would know on heavy sassafras bows, you would :).
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Kegan,
It's like asking if a dump truck can haul your groceries. Heck yeah. But for a "full compass" bow to draw 50# @ 28", 72" NTN is just too much wood. It's tricky to maintain lateral stability when your finished bow is, in order to follow the elb pattern faithfully, inside of 1" at the handle. The outer limb needs to be really little as well, like 5/16". I just ain't brave enough to do that well. If you make it say 1 1/8" at the arrow pass it's tough to maintain the 8:5, have it bend at all in the middle and not come in 80#, or thump the hell outa you with handshock. The wood is just too dense. Heck 62" would be more lenght than you need for a full compass bow.
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Kegan,
It's like asking if a dump truck can haul your groceries. Heck yeah. But for a "full compass" bow to draw 50# @ 28", 72" NTN is just too much wood. It's tricky to maintain lateral stability when your finished bow is, in order to follow the elb pattern faithfully, inside of 1" at the handle. The outer limb needs to be really little as well, like 5/16". I just ain't brave enough to do that well. If you make it say 1 1/8" at the arrow pass it's tough to maintain the 8:5, have it bend at all in the middle and not come in 80#, or thump the hell outa you with handshock. The wood is just too dense. Heck 62" would be more lenght than you need for a full compass bow.
Whoops, I forgot to mention that I wanted a big ol' bruiser of a bow, about 85#. From what you've said, that a 6' Osage bow of 85# would be oaky- correct?
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Heck yeah. Good osage, moisture control, careful craftsmanship and 1 1/8" will make that much bow and more. For 28" draw and under you might want a more shallow than full compass tiller.
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Excellent! Only mys shortest bows come out truly circular.
This thread is my new learning tool :D!
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No, Mims I won't be eating any venison this winter unless someone brings it to me wrapped up and ready for the freezer. ;) Its hurtin bad enough now that theres no extracurricular work going on. I'm getting my firewood cut, finishing this last bid I'm doin and maybe a few odd jobs then its under the knife I go. I just hope it makes things better not worse.
Soon as I'm better though the first thing I'm doin is a Hik LB. Got lotsa staves to choose from just can't do much with one good arm....livin vicariously through you fellers!
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Well, the sassafras is dry, so I'm straightenning it right now. It should be done in a week or two, to account for the backing and tempering the belly.And I don't want this sassafras to blow on me!
Wish me luck :)
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I'm waiting to see how this goes Kegan. ???
What are ya backin it with again?
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Kegan I've made over 10 sasafrass elbs 4 of them are over 80#. It makes a great elb.
ThimoS- Did you back your sass. ELB's?
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I'll be backing it with cotton (all I've got on hand). It's got a drying check on the back that runs off one tip. I had some success with heavy unbacked sass once, but due to poor tillering snapped before completion.
Should I temper the belly?
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I have thoroughly enjoyed reading all the exchanges. It seems to me this one will be ongoing for a while ,so after I get a couple more osage bows under my belt I may start looking for some white wood I could do an ELB with. I know that I love Hickory in the winter but when spring and summer comes around here in kansas they can lose some weight like has happened with the Virgin Hickory I made for my first bow. It went from 58# at my 26.5 draw length, down to about 44#. It still shoots good its just alot lower weight. I think that HHB would sure be nice if I can run up on a stave or two. I haven't heard it being as moisture sensitive as hickory. Then maybe I could make an HHB ELB PDQ.LOL Danny
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LOL, PDQ w/HBB? ;D
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you guys crack me up!
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i was cutting a few saplings for this challenge today, im having a hard time finding an id for this one, any body have a clue???
(http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u24/longfletch27/july08026.jpg)
(http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u24/longfletch27/july08021.jpg)
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dude, that ax needs a little help!
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i havent found anything to stop that axe so far, 8 yrs of riding in the bed of my truck has taken a toll on her beauty, but...pretty dont pull the plow bro :)
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true enough....as long as it's sharp, right? the edge is all it needs...
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elm. My favorite. That's what you got there.
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I've made sasafrass backed and unbacked. The unbacked ones haven't blown yet.
The trouble I've had on 60% of the staves were worm holes. After locating and exterminating the sob-eez I felt backing was my best bet. I used linen.
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great, thanks thimo.
i saw a straight sycamore im gonna cut soon and give a try, i have made elbs from river birch and sweetgum. the birch came out too light which was my fault prob. the sweetgum fretted some and took set, but i wrapped the frets with sinew and it still shoots, but is not the best preformer.
i want to find a long straight piece of am. holly also, i have made some good flatbows and d bows from that.
bryan
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Well, I started on mine this morning, going to use a very heavy wood like ipe, instead of having a target draw weight in mind I just built it to the smallest feasable demension and will let the mass weight dictate the poundage. roughed out it weighs 22 oz so i suspect it will weigh around 20 oz by the time it is near brace tiller demensions. This should put me around 60# with a slighlty elyptical tiller. Going to glue it up right now so tomorrow it should be ready to tiller. The outer limbs look a bit too narrow to hold 60# but I will give it a go. Instead of a straight taper from the handle to the tips I used a progressive taper dividing the limbs up into 1/3's. .015 per inch from the handle then .025 per inch mid limb and .035 per inch in the outer limb to the tips.
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Steve, I presume you found some good Ipe in your area. I'm sure those here realize this bow isn't for the challenge..hopefully we could be judging this at Mojam next summer, something like that would be fun...Whitewood bows in that humidity is a good challenge and something we can benefit from..
Rich-has a 6' piece of slippery elm for mine...
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Richard, for the challenge I want to build a maple bow about 1 1/8 wide 72" long. As much weight as I can get probably about 55 to 60#. I couldn't find any maple in my lumber pile so thought I would try the tapers out on some ipe. I like the overall taper but think it might be better starting from a slightly wider width maybe 1 1/8. Kind of looks like one of your bows. Steve
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We have this 35' or so tall shagbark maple tree on the back part of our patio, and the other day I hear this noise, and the tree guy is in the basket trimming it.! ;D I got 3 nice branches from it..Never used this maple, but I think its gonna work..The tree guys thought I was nuts, until I showed them a bow, and spoke to them in my broken Spanish...
I'll probably do the same as you mentioned with the maple..I should be able to get 72" from two of them..
I just got a call, and am getting some winged elm as well. ;D I like this stuff too!
Rich-
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I'm out. I have a vine maple I'm working on but it"s only 64" long with 1 3/4" wide limbs. With all the knots in the bow I don't think i could get the limbs narrow enough.
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I'll be using my new elm stave.
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Working on the Guava!
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My sassafras is getting close to tillering. It's straightenned, roughed out, tempered, and geting backed. Wish me luck!
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here are some pics of the sweetgum elb i made awhile back, not the best looking bow, but i like it, its light weight, sweet shooting. its 74"L, 1 1/4" wide to midlimb-3/8" tips..48#@28" draw,1 1/2" set. it had some fretting on top limb that i wrapped with sinew. the top limb is bending more than it should, but i decided to leave it, it shoots fine. sweet gum is an ok wood for bows up to 50's#, prob would make a great holmegaard type bow, its a pain to split, but easy to find perfect, clean wood.
(http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u24/longfletch27/100_0490.jpg)]
(http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u24/longfletch27/100_0498.jpg)
(http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u24/longfletch27/100_0492.jpg)
(http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u24/longfletch27/100_0503.jpg)
(http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u24/longfletch27/100_0489.jpg)
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Question! When you guys rough out an ELB do you keep the bow the same thickness from handle to tips or do you reduce the thickness from handle to tips? Is the 5:8 ratio enough with the back layout to casue the bow to floor tiller?
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taper like this
(http://[IMG]http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u24/longfletch27/elbblueprints.jpg)[/img]
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D.Tiller- ELBs, for me, are tough to get right on dimensions from the get go, unless you follow some general dimensions from someone else. So far, the "best" ELB dimensions that have worked for me were Pope's in Hunting with the Bow and Arrow, 1 1/4" for 10" on both sides of the handle, tapering to 3/4" wide tips (these get narrowed alot later). 1 1/4" thick tapering to 1/2" thick tips. I strayed from this too much and it cost me alot of cast on my sassafras bow.
Anyway, here's my FIRST sassafras bow. 70" long, a little over 1 1/4" wide between the middle of the limbs to about 1/2" or so nocks. About 1" or so at the thickest. Came out at 65#, with so-so cast for the weight. This is due to my not following one set of dimensions, but trying to use several. It's backed with a cotton sheet and needs alot of beauty work. I should also narrow the tips. Took about two incehs of set.
This bow would have turned out much better had I started off as narrow as it is now. Originally it was about 80#, but was only bending in the mid limb-to-tip area, casuing alot of compaction and some string follow. Due to some back and forth character, I had trouble limbering the center in time during the breaking in period. But it held, and the tiller, though still off, is better than I'd expected. Shoots straight and is sweet to shoot, but not strong enough for me to take hunting. More pictures when she's all gussied up.
I started a hickory, and will start another sassafras- this time knowing what to do with it. But ThimoS was veyr right- sassafras does make a good ELB.
[attachment deleted by admin]
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oops! last pic didnt show, heres a simple diagram
[i(http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u24/longfletch27/elbblueprints.jpg)mg][/img]
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What weight of a bow will the that give ya longfletch?
I have built a couple now an I have used direct taper from the handle to the tips and taper from midlimb to tips too. I found of the two I did the first was the best shooter so far. I made them arround 74-76" long by 1 1/4" wide at the handle.
Anyone have a sugestion on how wide I should make the bow if I want it to pull arround 90# at 31" of draw?
Did I mention I will be making it from Manny's Strawberry Guava?
Kegan, for the heavier weight bow I think I would aim for a 1 1/2" width by 1 1/4" thick at the handle and taper it to 3/4" at the nocks before adding the horn tips. Then reduce tip dimenstions for ben and to put on the horn nocks.
I'm thinking the strawberry guava may be able to take the shock on the nocks not to have to use horn there. Should I put the horn on just to be on the safe side?
Longfletch, looks like you taper right out of the handle. Am I seeing this right?
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Keegan- Good job with the sass. long bow! I'm glad to learn that sassafras will make a good ELB. I love that wood.
Anyway, I was wondering: does the whitewood bow challenge mean woods that are white only, or do we mean woods that are not the traditional favorites (like osage and yew). Hickory and Ash and Maple are white woods,so is Hophornbeam and Dogwood. I am assuming that the natural color of the wood is not the issue...
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David, it depends on the type of wood and the quality of the piece.
Orc, whitewood is generally any that you would use the sapwood on. With osage, mulberry and a few others you use the heartwood. Yew is whitewood but is excepted from this contest.
This does bring up an interesting question. Can I use mulberry sapwood? ;D Justin
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whatever you use, you can always paint it white when you're done...
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Justin , Adam , the whole thing with the WW ELB Challenge is to make an ELB out of wood that isn't considered LB wood. White wood is just a term to describe ( mostly) North American woods that are white throughout like HHB or hickory or have white sapwood.
Yes, Justin you can make one out of mulberry.Ain't too many rules just the way you like it. ;) You might even chase a ring in the sapwood so you get a white layer for the back like a yew LB would have.
Use whatever you want. :)
Chris
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Kegan, tiller on that bow is excellent, I have been playing around trying to find a good starting demension as well. I normally start about the way you described tapered to 3/4 tips and then just play it by ear and eye gradually reducing. Steve
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Thanks guys, I'm glad the tiller tunred out the way it did. Still off, but with the character (an undulation through the handle, a bunch of knots in one limb, and some crooks left and right). I want to start another one, slightly heavier, and hopefully unbacked. I just need to cut a tree here.
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Kegan, :( I hate to break the news to you but that weight bow will send a broadhead tipped arrow through any critter in North America( barring some zoo animals)! ;D
Is it all sapwood?
Have you done any testing with the heartwood yet to see what kinda qualities it has?
I have access to a buncha sass. trees and I also have some 5 year old cured stuff in the barn.
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Kegan great job. It came our perfect.
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Minuteman- No! Don't say that! I need monster bow :o! What if bullet-proof alines attack :D ;D?
Thanks guys. The bow is both sapwood and heartwood. The sapwood on the sassafras around here is very thin on these smaller tress, so I just treat it like whitewood and leave the sapwood intact. It's only about 1/8" thick on this piece. On some of the larger tress it can be as much as 1/4", but no more. I think thsat the heartwood is only slightly better tan the sapwood, and that being in compression. This bow is a very pleasent bow to shoot, but needs a good deal of prettying up. I definately want to sart another one, unbacked. Just have to find a suitable tree to cut.
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Well, I pulled the elm stave out of the rafters and it's a little more twisted than I had remembered...might be able to get an ELB out of it but maybe not. There is a bigger one out in the barn that I need to de-bark and check out next. I also have some maple planks that have been drying for about 24 years now. Maybe I'll try a board bow version... :-\
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Well, I pulled the elm stave out of the rafters and it's a little more twisted than I had remembered...might be able to get an ELB out of it but maybe not. There is a bigger one out in the barn that I need to de-bark and check out next. I also have some maple planks that have been drying for about 24 years now. Maybe I'll try a board bow version... :-\
The Thomspon borther's said to turn the satve into a board to let it dry. It'd definately keep the back nice and flat too :).
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By "turn the stave into a board" do you mean mill it out and square it up? Never tried that with a stave from a tree before...
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Somehing like that. I don't have it here, but it says to turn it into a "clear, sound billet" that's "3 inches square". He Later goes on to say the back should be perfectly flat and the rain should run from end to end- just as we know they should today on any board stave. And considering they were using lemonwood, snakewood, and lancewood bows form England, I doubt they shipped them there with the back ring full intact.
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Not sure if a clean billet 3 inches square will be possible out of this elm. Might have to head to that maple. It is all flitch cut and over 20 years drying. Bout time I did something with it besides move it and stack it...
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This is couple of my making, all within 5/8 rule.
105#/30" , small hornbeam overlays
(http://sweb.cz/hawkwind/105at30.jpg)
90#/33" selfnock ash
(http://sweb.cz/hawkwind/85na33.jpg)
(http://sweb.cz/hawkwind/85na33fulldraw.jpg)
90#/32" hornnock ash
(http://sweb.cz/hawkwind/ash90bracedontiler.jpg)
(http://sweb.cz/hawkwind/ash90at32.jpg)
120#/32" selfnock ash
(http://sweb.cz/hawkwind/120at32braced.jpg)
(http://sweb.cz/hawkwind/120at32.jpg)
Enjoy!
Jaroslav
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jaroslav, those look sweet!! and very powerful. do you mind sharing the specs of the bows?
bryan
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The biggest is 37 mm wide and the smalest about 34 mm wide. The 120# bow has about 3 cm (little more than 1" set, others have that or less.
I shot the 120# bow at the weekend it sends 12 mm tapered ash shaft with very small bodkin, that weighing 52-55 gram at some 220 yards. It is rocket launcher.
Jaro
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Very nice work Jaro. 120# :o
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Jaro. Great work as usual. And the guy shooting it proves you don't have to be the Hulk to shoot a warbow.
I'm beginning mine as of yesterday. It is out of elm.
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Does anyone have any notions of how parsimmon would work for an ELB? I have a couple of huge trees on my property and was thinking of cutting one.R.C.
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All I know about persimmon is if you cut it and split it it will twist up on ya, Its best to halve the log and let it dry for a year or two before you mess with it. Never seen such perfectly straight wood twist like persimmon will. Maybe if the log is 12" or bigger you could quarter it and be all right but its terrible to see your beautiful staves turn into corkscrews.
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MAY I ASK A STUPID QUESTION? WHAT DOES ERC MEAN? I AM NEW TO THE FORUM AND TO PRIMITIVE ARCHERY, SO PLEASE BE GENTAL
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ERC = Eastern Red Cedar
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Yes there are rectangular cross-sections on even some of the Mary-Rose bows, corners rounded of-course. I've made both deep rounded and flatter-squarish-rounded and like them equally. It's really about what the stave has to say in my opinion.
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Right you are ! The "5/8 rule" does not seem to have been used in the Mary Rose bows. People studying them found the 1-1.1 rule would fit the reality better. Besides the rounded rectangular section that was thought best for short range shooting, the well known D section, the oval section to almost round. Of course the British Longbow Society does not consider most of these to be longbows. I leave it to archers to decide if they agree about that.
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I agree! The stave dictates how the bow will be built. Maybe it has to do wit how large the tree was that it came out of. I've made bows using the 1 - 1.1 dimensions and they work really well and are stable to shoo and do not want to twist out of the string at the nocks. It also seems easier to tiller too.
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Actually, the 1.1 ratio is about correct if you measure it at median line, if you go further to the limbs they get flatter and flatter, particullary in charracter areas.
J.
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Jaro do you mean toward the tips or the handle? I find that it gets almost flat at the handle and more rounded towards the tips and nocks.
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By median line I mean "the handle". It is natural result of laying the bow with low width taper, to get more circular bend.
Jaro
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By median line I mean "the handle". It is natural result of laying the bow with low width taper, to get more circular bend.
Jaro
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You can get a perfect circular [arc] bend with a width taper straight to the tips. The bend dependss much more on the thickness reduction than on the width.
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So, do you mean the belly wood is not reduced from handle to tips but just the width?
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So, do you mean the belly wood is not reduced from handle to tips but just the width?
No, I think he means that any width tapering will do, but the tiller depends on the evenness of the belly taper. I've tried pyramid D bows, you can't taper them enough to prevent them bending too much at the grip.
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So, do you mean the belly wood is not reduced from handle to tips but just the width?
No, I think he means that any width tapering will do, but the tiller depends on the evenness of the belly taper. I've tried pyramid D bows, you can't taper them enough to prevent them bending too much at the grip.
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Thanks. That is exactly what I meant.
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Which is not how they did it. Mary rose bows have width taper which is aimed for wide tips first to get the bend AND weight. Consequent narrowing of the tips makes the width taper look like grass leaf, where thickness taper is more or less straight.
They get flatter, the further the limbs until the point where second taper starts.
J.
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Do you have a picture Jaro? I'm having a hard time visualizing this.
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Which is not how they did it. Mary rose bows have width taper which is aimed for wide tips first to get the bend AND weight. Consequent narrowing of the tips makes the width taper look like grass leaf, where thickness taper is more or less straight.
They get flatter, the further the limbs until the point where second taper starts.
J.
Perhaps some of them did but not all of them
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Ever wonder if the method was left to the bowyer? Perhaps those that contracted for the bows put a set of standards in place and as long as the bow met those standards they were used?
Just a thought that ran through my head, I'll go back in hiding now. ;D
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Wow, who knew such a simple bow could be so complicated :o!
But I've got several more roughed out and drying- a sassafras, hickory, and white oak. I want to see how quickly I can go from tree to finished bow with the sassafras, since it dries so quickly.
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What I imagine is that those things come with technology itself rather than set of rules which is artificially imposed from higher authorirty.
Imagine yourself to be a bowyer, or better yet aprentice. You get stave which is almost twice as wide as typical bow, it still has all the sapwood and perhaps bark, which is chipping off. It is also very long.
To lay out the bow, you would probably clean it briefly, look for deffects and trim sides, but not very much. Then the sapwood thinning comes, again to reveal any defects, if present. (Constant bickering about the wood quality seems to be bread and butter of medieval bowyer). The aim is to make the bow as heaviest the stave allows, because lighter bows can be made from worse quality staves in numbers aplenty. When the sapwood is worked down, the taper for width will be laid out as to chose cleanest availble strip and rough shape chipped out with small hand axe.
Then either spokeshave or rasp is used to clan up the sides and the edge of back is scraped into radius.
That is the point where according to experience and in accordance to width the thickness will be laid down and again chiped or worked down with drawknife.
There are small flat areas on sides of biggest MR profiles, which suggest that this was a common practice - to start clean work with squared stave.
That is the point where experienced person has to start work on rounding the belly and the tiler, but with very much experience the shaping can be done without need to tiler much and then again somebody else will set the nock.
Imagine the workhsop where perhaps master, two or three aprentices and journeyman or two work. The master does what is most difficult and the rest according their best abilities, or they rotate among the workplaces.
Our big mistake is to think that a single bow is a single mans work. Perhaps three or four people worked on one bow as it went through the workshop - to make lots of them in row. So standartisation of process (even though not standartisation of dimensions) will be desirable.
Some things about technollogy as the idea of tools or sucession of steps which were taken can be derived from the product when we look closely. For example - lighter collor on the tips of the bows shows where the horn was and normally it goes around the tip, altough not much care is taken about the edge of horn or things like this, but there is one MR bow which has discoloration reaching into horn area on both sides of the tip. That is without doubt a mark of that the bow had the tips narrowed for better cast with no regards to horn tips after it was made and perhaps shot in (and found dissatisfiing in cast).
Jaro
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Thanks for the info Jaro. But what I'm having difficulty picturing is the taper from grip on out to the tips. I think from what you have mentioned the there is, at the beginning, even taper from handle to aprox. midlimb then a reduction and tapering to around 1/2" - 3/4" at the nock. Then the bow is tillered on the sides but not the belly? Is the belly wood tapered at all or just left the same thickness from the handle to the tips or does it also taper from its full width at the handle to 1/2" -3/4" at the tips?
Thanks again!
David T
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Well I've started whittling down my 1st try at an ELB and boy, this is the whitest white wood I've worked with. I notice that some elm is brown or reddish in the heartwood but this is all white. Nice thick growth rings tho... Have found some small knots so this could just be a "drill"...I need the practice anyway.
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That's the right attitude Paul.
I've just started my 1st ever elm with red/brown heartwood. All the others were as white as ivory. I used maple stain over them when finished.
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Yep, "white as ivory" pretty well describes it... I'm just taking it one shaving at a time and we'll see how it comes out. It also has some twist to it. Does elm react ok to a little anti twist heat if I need to go that route...?
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OK, every shaving revealed more knot and it is at the mid limb point so looks like this won't make a longbow. :( At least I might be able to salvage it for something else...
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Elm does very well with heat.
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Thanks for the input ThimoS. That's good to know.
Now, how well does it do if I try to stretch it...? :)
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Actually, the 1.1 ratio is about correct if you measure it at median line, if you go further to the limbs they get flatter and flatter, particullary in charracter areas.
J.
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I have a poster, Selection of Longbows, produced by Mary Rose Trust that shows four Mary Rose bows with cross sections every few inches, These show that these bows are not only not flatter at the ends but are flatter at midsection if anything. Where do you get your information from ?
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OK sorry it's taken so long to post pics of the Mendlesham bow,but here are some that I've taken.......
http://s289.photobucket.com/albums/ll229/Cromsbowman/?start=0
They are not that great but it was dark and there was a great big storm going on outside at the time,which made the place creepy!!!
Any Q's just ask......
Thanks for your time.
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I made two bows of brownish elm that I got in Switzerland. When I tried them out they shot just as well as my yew bow but they very soon developed a lot of string follow. Please let us know how your elm bows turn out.
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Thought I'd bring this back up. Anyone done anything ww/elb related?
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Nope! Had no time recently. Business is growing so no time fore me in bow shop.
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Chris- I'm still working on mine, its Hickory. Though I'm not sure if it will meet the ELB criteria. I will have to review this thread for the guidelines.
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I've got my white oak under way. I've got a problem though: the white oak feels very heavy. It has some resiliency, and it seems dry enough (no string follow during tillering, the meter says 9-11%), but the wood tears a bit under the belt sander (new found toy ;)). I'm trying to lighten the tips for good cast, but I'm worried about messing up the tiller. I'm at school and our modem is down, but I'll post pictures as soon as I can to see if anyone can help me out if necessary.
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EEEEEEKKKKKKKK!!!!!! BELT SANDER!!!!!!
Put it away Kegan. Power tools and bow building have no place in bow building except for roughing out the bow. In the final stages, especially tillering only use hand tools or you will regret it and go! "OH C#$% what have I done!"
David T
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EEEEEEKKKKKKKK!!!!!! BELT SANDER!!!!!!
Put it away Kegan. Power tools and bow building have no place in bow building except for roughing out the bow. In the final stages, especially tillering only use hand tools or you will regret it and go! "OH C#$% what have I done!"
David T
don't worry- I've lost more than a few bows to using a power saw. I was just using it to take out the hatchet marks all over the bow. Tillering goes to the rasp/vixen file.
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I just tested out my hickory backed osage elb, so far my best to date for an elb, osage isnt legal for this contest though is it? Steve