Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Stoner on February 28, 2025, 02:56:25 pm
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First off I want to thank everyone who supports this forum and resurrected it. It has been a long minute since I have posted anything and I need all your knowledge to help me with an all wood laminated bow. I have tried 3 1/2 to 4 times now and failed. With 2 of them shooting then for no reason they said nope not today.
Need help with the following:
1) Layout - handle to fades, limb width & length
2) Wood -grain orientation & species
3} Asymmetric or symmetric
Here is the wood and layout that I am trying this time. Layout as follows 4" handle, 2" fades, 29" working limbs. In the past I have divided the limbs into thirds. One third straight & two thirds tapper. Starting with quarter saw osage 0.495 appox. 1/2"thick. I have the grain drawn with a red pencil so you can hopefully see it runs relatively straight. black pencil shows the centerline and 1-3/4" wide straight taper to the nock at 3/4" wide.
Please be blunt and let me know if I'm drinking my bath water again. Thanks John 3:16
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Here is the Hickory backing. Quarter sawn at 0.175 aprox. 3/16 thick. I know hickory performs better under tension than compression. Also wanted another wood for the final backing.
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And finally the finished backing curly maple 0.110 aprox 1/8" thick flat sawn. You will also see the hickory laying naext to it both have no grain run out.
Once again thanks in advance. John3:16
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Not sure that I understand correctly, do you want the curly maple as the backing instead of the hickory? Curly maple is not a good choice for the backing, as the "curly" grain is inherently weaker. Hickory is the absolute best wood for backing. Curly maple is used on fiberglass laminated bows, but it's the glass doing all the tension work.
Grain orientation on the end grain, doesn't tell you much about how the grain is on the sides, and if there is significant run off or not. That information is crucial to the success or failure of the bow. Most important is the straightness of the grain on the sides of the backing
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Stoner I’m really sorry I don’t have any useful advice but man I’m glad to see you here.
Curious though. What shape of riser? Deflex? Straight?i
Any pictures. You know we love pictures.
Bjrogg
PS I see you got a reply from Hamish and I would tend to agree with him.
I wonder if you could tiller it out a few lbs light hickory backed and then glue the curly maple on the belly. Then re tiller it. I bet that would look really cool.
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Hamish thanks for the reply the curly maple may get thinned down to 1/16 and is strictly for aesthetics. The working bow is osage and hickory. As for run out there is none on the hickory sides or face. The osage has grain running end to end but has some run in & out as it tappers(typical osage) but for the most part its stays true. This is why I tried to show the grain in red in the photo, hope you can see it.
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I'm not saying there is no way the curly maple won't work, but even if thin, it will still be taking all the tension, on the back, and is a weak link. It has the potential for the maple to "pop" like a on a really thin ringed tree stave. The hickory underneath might save it from a break, but it also might continue the break into the hickory. If you want a durable bow, I would leave it out.
3/16" hickory is also a little thick, for a backing if you are making a wide limbed flatbow, in a 40-70lbs bow. I'd go 1/8".
I'd swap out the curly maple, use a strip 1/16"-1/8" of a core wood to sandwich between the back and belly. Walnut or some other contrasting wood looks good.
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I have tried 3 1/2 to 4 times now and failed. With 2 of them shooting then for no reason they said nope not today.
please describe your failures in more detail. a pic of the bend you are tillering for would help also
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Well your right about the maple being a weak link this is what happened last time. So I carved all the maple and hickory off and tried it again from flat sawn to quarter sawn.
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This was tillering
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This is when it let go
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Hamish thanks for the reply the curly maple may get thinned down to 1/16 and is strictly for aesthetics.
Hamish is correct, the curly maple is taking all of the tension on the back and will be your weak link. I would back the osage with a 1/8" thick (at most, could even be 0.090"-0.100" if you can get it down that thin) piece of hickory and that should be a slam dunk in getting a shooting bow.
Your tiller picture looks to me like there is a hinge starting on the RH limb just off the end of the fade. It's above and a bit to the left of the skull sticker on the truck window. It doesn't look like that is where the bow failed, though, so maybe you cleared that out in tillering. I would suggest a much shorter tillering string, unless you were just checking for a ballpark weight estimate early on.
Mark
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I love the dual purpose tiller string. Tiller your bow, then tow your truck out of the ditch.
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just a few questions to put things into perspective as those limbs look thick, at least in the pics.
nock to nock length of the bow? and thickness of the limbs 12" out from the center of the bow?
looks like very dry country you live in, do you keep your wood inside or outside?
and how hard do you pull when you tiller and do you use a scale to measure?
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Yes that hickory should be between a 1/16th and an 1/8th and probably no more. To me it looks like the hickory was too thick and overpowered the belly. Also almost all your bending was on the inner third. Did you have a scale in it when you are pulling it? Chances are the weight was extremely high. If you are going to make a trilam the center lam should be a softer wood than your back and belly. Like a walnut or a cherry
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Ok guys & gals took a little time at the rock shop to cut some obsidian,onyx, crysicolla, etc. and been chasing rings on some bodark. Just needed a little time to recoup from these fails.
bjrogg- sounds like curly maple is not an option and the layout this time I would like to just do a backset longbow but past failed bows have been R/D. I'll try to post some pics as this thread continues.
Hamish- I will mill the hickory to 0.094 (3/32") and I try not to over stress limbs but ussually put a bow on the tree heavy after floor tiller. I am also shooting for 50-55# also layout limbs @29" not that it's my draw but in the past have cut down when under shot my weight.
mmattockx- I am going to mill the hickory down and will shorten my tiller string / tow strap as Burnsie calls it. LOL
willie- Yes the limbs were still too thick ,just trying to move slow with a dozen scrapes at a time. The bow was Asymmetric so the top limb bending a quarter inch positive of he bottom limb. the layout was a 4" handle center line 1" off top, 2" fades, top working limb 30", bottom working limb 28", both limbs 1-1/2"wide & divided into thirds bottom third straight & top two thirds tapper. Yes I live in Apache Jct, AZ. so my wood has zero moisture. That being said I have been very successful with selfbows. All my wood has been seasoned from MI. 2010 to OK. 2021. My wood is stored in the garage and motorcycle trailer as my boss fails to find it necessary to keep it stored in a climate controlled environment. I also am looking for another scale, thinking of a digital. Any scale recommendations?
paulsemp- As I just mentioned I'm in the market for a new scale. I have some Black walnut and will be checking with the cabinet shop I use to work at for Cherry I think that would be a nice contrast. Never thought about a transition wood in the middle.
Thanks everyone I got some work to do on my tiller tree, milling wood and locating some wood. One other question would be layout, asymmetric, symmetric, limb widths. I shoot split finger.
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I'm a grumpy old English bloke... so...
Forget abut curly Maple and stuff to make it pretty UNLESS it has some useful properties. (E.G Does a snake skin backing provide extra protection/strength etc? )
Use the most appropriate wood and the best you have (which in my case is often pretty marginal ::) )
Let the beauty of the wood and the design speak.
A well made and well tillered bow will always look good, without any adornments.
Del