Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: superdav95 on January 20, 2024, 05:34:55 pm
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Good day gang. Here is a build I’ve wanting to do for some time. I may also sinew back another yew selfbow too at the same time I do this one to compare. This particular bow build will be built with very dense yew heartwood belly drops off another bow I recently built. It’s heartwood only and I plan to apply a couple layers of sinew as backing. Aiming for a 50-55 lbs bow. I’ve got the z splice done already and then glued up a section for the handle to build up handle and fades area. Glue I’m using is ea40 smooth on. I use an old saw blade to rough up surfaces and acetone wipe them prior to glue up. Clamp them tight for good fit. Band saw used to cut my splice after tracing on my pattern on the two halves. I’m not sure how this will go as there is no sapwood at all but my guess is that it will work ok. I’ve heard of issues delaminating sapwood from the heartwood when sinew is used to back a yew selfbow. I’ll compare and see. Should be a good test to see if sinew alone can be adequate for backing heartwood only yew bow. Let’s find out! Anyways thanks for following along.
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Sweet, I always enjoy following your work Dave.
Mark
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I’m watching Dave. I’ve got a bunch of good Osage drops . Gave a bunch away too. I need to build some short bows for flight.
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I been thinking about trying a splice myself so I’m all over these posts showing the process..
Looking good Dave
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Dave how thick is your drops at the z splice? I want to have minimum 3/4 to 1”.
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Dave how thick is your drops at the z splice? I want to have minimum 3/4 to 1”.
Mine here is about an inch. The handle section glued on after is about 3/4”
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If you are gluing a handle piece on at splice how thin can the splice area be without fear of failure? The assumption that the handle piece glued on will stiffen and add strength to the splice area.?
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If you are gluing a handle piece on at splice how thin can the splice area be without fear of failure? The assumption that the handle piece glued on will stiffen and add strength to the splice area.?
If you were to glue an overlay over top of the splice on the back and a handle riser on the belly the splice doesn't need to be very thick at all, no thicker than the limb thickness at the end of the fades.
It isn't just an assumption that the handle adds stiffness and strength, it is an structural fact.
Mark
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Ok guys. I got my billet belly drops basically shaped up to the following dimensions, approx 1/2” thick the entire length of each limb and ttt length at about 63-64”. I’ll be cutting a little off so Likely closer to 62-63” ttt. Limb width is 1 3/4” at widest and very slight taper to 1 1/2” at 10” from the tip where it narrows to 1/2” or so. It will end little narrower in the end. The handle is 4” with typical fades that dip into the limb wood. I’ll be flipping the tips slightly and trying to get as much reflex as I can get from the sinew backing. The other piece of yew shown here is a comparison build that will also receive same amount of sinew as the billet bow. Goal is to build one yew billet heartwood sinew backed bow around 50lbs and then compare it with the selfbow then sinewed over the sapwood. Both aiming to be 50lbs in the end at 28”. Both similar dimensions and length ect. I’ve always wanted to try a sinewed yew bow with and without sapwood so figured I’d try one of each method. The stave I’m using is less then ideal for a selfbow anyway as there were some inclusions and sapsuckers that got to it. It also has a fair bit of crown too. I think it’s a good candidate for this project. Thanks for following along!
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Few more…
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Spent an hour on the stave today and got it worked down some. It’s at basic dimensions of the other for the most part. It has some heat correction that needs attention and prop twist at the tips not not too bad. Took sapwood down to about 1/8” approx. it was quite thick before.
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My best yew bow was made from heartwood only billets and sinew backed. Old hippy gave them to me at the 2015 Classic.
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My best yew bow was made from heartwood only billets and sinew backed. Old hippy gave them to me at the 2015 Classic.
Well that sounds promising then! Thanks PD. Let’s see if I don’t screw it up then. It will be interesting to compare the two as far as performance and other shoot ability factors like handshock or final mass as such. I’ll dimension them similar in build dimensions but to get both of them to same weight in draw it may vary somewhat as the yew stave is quite crowned and the heartwood only is very flat. I may try and round it a bit though a bit more. My goal is to get two shootable bows in the end. Not terribly scientific here but should be interesting anyway.
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The stave I’m using is less then ideal for a selfbow anyway as there were some inclusions and sapsuckers that got to it. It also has a fair bit of crown too.
Dave,
Since you're sinewing the stave have you considered flattening the crown to even up stresses in the wood? You may not have enough thickness to do that, though.
Just a thought,
Mark
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The stave I’m using is less then ideal for a selfbow anyway as there were some inclusions and sapsuckers that got to it. It also has a fair bit of crown too.
Dave,
Since you're sinewing the stave have you considered flattening the crown to even up stresses in the wood? You may not have enough thickness to do that, though.
Just a thought,
Mark
Mark, yup I did a little decrowning. I didn’t want to go right flat as to compromise the sapwood too much as this would negate the point of the comparison of the two builds. It still has some crown but I did remove some so hoping it will work alright. Right along the top peak of the crown the sapwood will be slightly thinner then on the rest of the bow. The other alternative I’m considering is to hollow out a little the belly to compensate for this crown. We shall see how things progress with each. Today I’m working on the flipped tips on the billet bow. I also glued on a flat piece on the handle of the stave bow to better match the billet bow. I’ll post some pics of my progress tomorrow. Thanks
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Made some progress today on these bows. Got them both to same basic floor tiller. Tips flipped on both. I heated in some reflex to both as well. I’ve got to fix a little more twist of the one end on the sapwood bow. Gonna fix that twist before I start any sinew. I plan to put some fine grooving on the back of the bows prior to sizing with thin bud glue. I’m gonna try a chewed sinew application on both. Never done it so will see how things go. Here’s some update pics.
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Couple more
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Those look awesome. I'm interested to hear how the chewed sinew works out.
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Looking good so far, Dave.
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Thanks guys. I’m very interested as well.
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Looking good Dave, Lots of chewing on them bows but feel sure it will work if your yaws don't get worn out. ;) :)
Pappy
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What a great project and comparison. I just graduated from vine maple and started my first yew project. I might have to violate some sapwood on the stave I chose. Do you absolutely have to add sinew or just for insurance?
Good luck. I will be following
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Looking good Dave, Lots of chewing on them bows but feel sure it will work if your yaws don't get worn out. ;) :)
Pappy
Thanks pappy! Ya it’s gonna be lots of chewing for certain. I may have to split it up over a couple days. I’ve been toying with the idea of a spit bowl and letting it soak it there too to assist with the amount of sinew I’m gonna be dealing with.
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What a great project and comparison. I just graduated from vine maple and started my first yew project. I might have to violate some sapwood on the stave I chose. Do you absolutely have to add sinew or just for insurance?
Good luck. I will be following
Thanks Doug. You don’t always need to back yew if rings are violated. In fact depending on the amount of violations and where along the limb you may not need to back at all. Many guys have build nice yew bows with violated rings with no backing. It’s mainly an insurance measure. I’ve made them with or without backing. I back all my yew bows with rawhide now. I find it provides that protective layer for the relatively soft sapwood. It also provides a nice canvas for stain or paint as well.
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I spent some time today on both of these after resting these from the heat corrections and flipped tips were put in. Floor tillered bow to roughly 55-57lbs at low brace. Both bending evenly and balanced. Little heavier then I was originally thinking before starting sinew but I think this will assist with not stressing the belly wood too much and have the sinew work well with unstressed belly fibers. I also don’t want to induce too much reflex with these Botha at the end. My goal for these is around 3-4” retained reflex. Right now they are about there close to 4” reflex. With the sinew added I will gain around 2” more. I figure I’ll loose about 2-3” after shoot in. That will give me a very easy shooter out of both. On my other sinew backed bows I would lay down 2 or 3 layers of thinner bundles carefully measured and pre soaked and combed out and washed I would used measured amounts of hide glue on these bows I’m going for a different approach. I’m planning to apply 60-70grams of sinew on each bow. Some may seem to think this is a little on the light side for sinew. it may be but I guess it depends on the build. I’m going to only sinew about about 15-20” of each limb and tie off with a wrap about 6” from the end basically where the flipped tips are starting. I’ll use some small shorter strands to incorporate at the handle overlapping a bit into the limbs. I’m gonna go for one big layer. This goes against my typical trusted method. I will measure and separate equal bundles for each limb of about 30-35grams. Let the chewing experiment begin!!! Here’s some pics of the bows to where I’m at now. Notice the mild dishes out belly of the sapwood bow. I decided on this slight hollow belly due to the higher crown. Hoping it will even out the stresses better. I just followed the contours feeling along with my fingers to get it close.
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Ok. So change of plans! I’m not going to chew the sinew for these bows. I tried to chew a small batch and I can’t stomach it. I know I know the purests out there may say oh man up and just do it! Well I could maybe do it over several applications over several weeks little at a time maybe to spread it out. And maybe I could manage to do one bow fine without tossing my cookies but my gut feeling is that I would be nauseous the entire time. Here’s the thing. I have most of my sinew that I’ve broken down as moose and elk back strap. I cannot stand the taste of it. I’ve tried chewing a few back straps from deer and can manage it fine without feeling nauseous the whole time. I don’t have as much deer sinew otherwise I’d just use it instead and proceed with original plan. As an alternative plan for these bows instead I’m gonna go a different route entirely. I’ve always wanted to test out tb3 with sinew. I’ve never done it and heard of the odd account of reputable bowyers who have done it. This method has its benefits and drawbacks compared to “the matrix” of hide glue and sinew. The benefits I foresee could possibly be:
1. Increased water resistance
2. Increased adhesive properties.
3. Easier to repair if repairs needed in the field.
4. Water soluble and easy clean up and application.
Downsides could be:
1. Less compatible with sinew then hide glue
2. Little or no matrix benefits ?
3. Added mass with tb3 glue?
4. Longer to dry?
Lots of unanswered questions for sure. Let’s find out together.
Here’s what I’m gonna do based on what research I’ve done and what little on this there is out there.
I’m gonna still use 60-70 grams of clean brushed/combed sinew strands per bow that have been thoroughly washed and cleaned. Dry weights prior to cleaning and removal of any little unwanted bits will be close.
I’m going to size the back with a thinned down tb3 glue and water first and slightly heat up the back of the bow which will be thoroughly cleaned from any oils and such. The surface will also be roughed up too.
I’m gonna soak the sinew in a watery very thin tb3 glue solution prior to using full strength glue when laying down on the bow.
I’m going to wrap the sinewed bows with cloth strips or bandages while drying.
I’m going to back string the bows inducing an inch or so additional reflex beyond the 3” now in the bows while the bow dries for a few weeks.
Anyway. Let’s learn together. I’ve never done this so any advise would be welcome guys
Dave
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The benefits I foresee could possibly be:
1. Increased water resistance
2. Increased adhesive properties.
3. Easier to repair if repairs needed in the field.
4. Water soluble and easy clean up and application.
I'm curious to see how it works out. I've backed a couple bows with fabric and TB3 and I've patched a couple knots using synthetic rope fibres and Knox gelatin. I would say the gelatin/hide glue wins hands down in terms of strength and clean up is just as easy as the TB3. The TB3 never really dried truly hard on the backings I used and I would guess it will allow some creep over time due to the rubbery nature of it. The hide glue is rock solid in comparison and is still holding the synthetic fibres with no trouble after a couple thousand shots despite the fibres being much stiffer than the wood they are glued to.
Mark
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The benefits I foresee could possibly be:
1. Increased water resistance
2. Increased adhesive properties.
3. Easier to repair if repairs needed in the field.
4. Water soluble and easy clean up and application.
I'm curious to see how it works out. I've backed a couple bows with fabric and TB3 and I've patched a couple knots using synthetic rope fibres and Knox gelatin. I would say the gelatin/hide glue wins hands down in terms of strength and clean up is just as easy as the TB3. The TB3 never really dried truly hard on the backings I used and I would guess it will allow some creep over time due to the rubbery nature of it. The hide glue is rock solid in comparison and is still holding the synthetic fibres with no trouble after a couple thousand shots despite the fibres being much stiffer than the wood they are glued to.
Mark
Very interesting mark. Thanks for the insights. I’ve only ever used tb3 in backings like snake skins or rawhide. I’ve dabbled with other coverings like fish skins and other various organic material but for those I used hide glue or sturgeon fish glue. I didn’t find my hide backings or snake skins applied with tb3 to be more flexible or rubbery. Mine dried up quite good actually. I’ve been working on processing sinew today in preparation for whatever I end up doing on these bows. I have half a mind to just go with what I know will work good which is hide glue and clean sinew in measured bundles. But that doesn’t allow me to explore the unknown and it’s possibilities. Maybe I’ll do one each way and compare. I don’t know I’m all over the place on this. More to come.
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I didn’t find my hide backings or snake skins applied with tb3 to be more flexible or rubbery. Mine dried up quite good actually.
It isn't terrible or rubbery like contact cement, but it isn't rock hard like cured epoxy is. I am sure I could stick a thumbnail into mine and leave a mark years after they were done.
You could do a test piece with a thin board that bends easily and see how well the TB3 holds the sinew in place after drying.
Mark
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I didn’t find my hide backings or snake skins applied with tb3 to be more flexible or rubbery. Mine dried up quite good actually.
It isn't terrible or rubbery like contact cement, but it isn't rock hard like cured epoxy is. I am sure I could stick a thumbnail into mine and leave a mark years after they were done.
You could do a test piece with a thin board that bends easily and see how well the TB3 holds the sinew in place after drying.
Mark
. Ya I might try that. Thanks mark. Another thought that is occurring to me is just to wash the stuff thoughouly first then pat dry it then chew it. Maybe that will be more palletable. Either way I’ll figure something out
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My experience with sinew and tb3 has is it takes for ever to dry. But I only did one so don’t count on my experience.!🤠and by the way I was laughing my butt off at your trying the chew thing. I’m sure it worked 5000 years ago and would work today but why and if those guys had the knowledge of today they might do it differently. 🤠enjoying Dave
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The benefits I foresee could possibly be:
1. Increased water resistance
2. Increased adhesive properties.
3. Easier to repair if repairs needed in the field.
4. Water soluble and easy clean up and application.
A few questions. Why do you believe that Titebond would possess superior adhesion qualities to hide glue given that the latter will naturally fuse with the sinew matrix and wood surface? Why would Titebond be easier to repair than hide glue given that the latter can be easily debonded by simply heating and/or applying water unlike Titebond? Why would Titebond be easier to cleanup than hide glue given that both are water soluble in the liquid state (and the latter while also in a solid state)? I do agree with that a Titebond/sinew matrix would likely be more water resistant than a hide glue matrix.
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The benefits I foresee could possibly be:
1. Increased water resistance
2. Increased adhesive properties.
3. Easier to repair if repairs needed in the field.
4. Water soluble and easy clean up and application.
A few questions. Why do you believe that Titebond would possess superior adhesion qualities to hide glue given that the latter will naturally fuse with the sinew matrix and wood surface? Why would Titebond be easier to repair than hide glue given that the latter can be easily debonded by simply heating and/or applying water unlike Titebond? Why would Titebond be easier to cleanup than hide glue given that both are water soluble in the liquid state (and the latter while also in a solid state)? I do agree with that a Titebond/sinew matrix would likely be more water resistant than a hide glue matrix.
Thanks for the questions Gordon. I’m not certain just theories. My reasoning and theories may in fact be flawed and am willing to accept that. I’ve had great luck with hide glue, fish glues and such so that much I know to the level I can know it’s capabilities. I’ve also used titebond with good results for some things. I’ve seen great adhesion with both. The problem with hide glue or most protein based natural glues is the time it takes to cure especially in the field during a hunt. For a minor repair that requires no water and just little heat if possible might be the exception to what I’m about to say… Drying time does become an issue with hide type glues compared to commercial glues and epoxy. In the field even a water soluable glue like tb3 may get you back up and in the hunt in a day or two depending on the repair. On the other hand Having to rehydrate layers of sinew by adding more sinew or a patch of sinew I suspect would be longer to dry out and then seal up to get it ready for the hunt again. Even if I were to speed dry each repair over mild heat source I suspect that the tb3 or the like would dry and cure faster then a similar patch of hide glue and sinew to be usable. I could be wrong but that’s my guess. Having built many sinewed backed bows and doing patch repairs here and there at the house I've observed that it may feel dry to the touch but is still cool to the touch indicating that it still not fully cured and dry even a week later. Don’t get me wrong I love the obvious benefits in performance the sinew and natural glues gives. Part of me is just curious if the benefits are overrated to some degree and negated somewhat by the rapid moisture absorption that happens with sinewed bows in higher humidity. The tb3 may offer similar performance results and be less affected by moisture then the hide glue option. I’ve done my very best to seal up my sinew backed bows and it helps for sure but the longer I’m out in the open outside air it shows a noticeable change in draw weight and recovery to its reflex especially in high humidity. I guess I’m hoping the results are going to be favourable if I go the route of using tb3. I suspect it may be a toss up in the end when it comes right down to it. We shall see.
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Dave, to be clear, I am not questioning the utility of your experiment. I am only questioning some of the assumed benefits. That said, as someone who has ruined two sinew backed bows by exposing them to hard use over several days of heavy rain, I am most interested in what you discover. Regarding the ability to perform field repairs, what sort of issues do you anticipate might arise that are specific to a sinew back that might, as a practical matter, be repairable in the field - I honestly can't think of any. My advice, based on hard experience, for anyone that hunts with a sinew back bow is bring a spare non-sinew backed bow with you in the event that weather conditions take a turn for the worse.
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Dave, to be clear, I am not questioning the utility of your experiment. I am only questioning some of the assumed benefits. That said, as someone who has ruined two sinew backed bows by exposing them to hard use over several days of heavy rain, I am most interested in what you discover. Regarding the ability to perform field repairs, what sort of issues do you anticipate might arise that are specific to a sinew back that might, as a practical matter, be repairable in the field - I honestly can't think of any. My advice, based on hard experience, for anyone that hunts with a sinew back bow is bring a spare non-sinew backed bow with you in the event that weather conditions take a turn for the worse.
Gordon. It’s hard to convey meaning over text in a reply. Never thought you were questioning the utility of this hair brained idea. I too question the assumed benefits so I guess I’ll join in on that! Lol. I’m really not sure what will happen actually. I’ve heard guys on the net posting their results and what not but I haven’t tried it myself so I’m basing my assumptions on what I believe might happen with using the tb3. This is based on my limited use of it mind you. I had good hard results as far as it setting up. Others on here mentioned it was not as hard and even rubbery or flexible. As far as in the field, yes it would definitely be better to just bring another bow as a back up if the primary one is sinew backed. This is not the scenario I’m thinking of. The scenario I’m thinking of may not make sense to everyone as I explain it here but it’s a specific scenario that I’m going to allow myself to be in as a participant. to only have one bow preferably made by me and don’t want to use a fg trad bow. In this situation it will be exposed to various weather mostly cold. The bow would need to be very durable and hard hitting enough to take big game. My thought on this originally was to get a good Osage bow backed with sinew covered with snake skins or something poss thin raw hide. I still may do that depending on how these do… I would seal this up well prior to embarking. It’s by choice and design to have only one bow. That being said in the end depending on the repair both variants would be easy enough to repair in the field. The major benefit would be the moisture resistance of tb3 version. I may build one with hide glue and one with tb3 and test them out to see what I get. I may see about different coatings like even epoxy coatings possibly. I know there are some activated epoxy sprays that are good too. The initial test is seeing differences in performance of the two. I’ll deal with water proofing it later.
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My experience with sinew and tb3 has is it takes for ever to dry. But I only did one so don’t count on my experience.!🤠and by the way I was laughing my butt off at your trying the chew thing. I’m sure it worked 5000 years ago and would work today but why and if those guys had the knowledge of today they might do it differently. 🤠enjoying Dave
Lol. Glad you are enjoying the visual. I couldn’t do it. I guess if I was Hungry enough. 😂
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Dave. I have experience with epoxy-based finishes. On the plus side they are extremely durable and weather resistant. On the negative side, unless you have a properly ventilated spray booth, application is difficult and seamless spot repairs are nearly impossible to perform. For me, the negatives outweigh the positives.
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Dave. I have experience with epoxy-based finishes. On the plus side they are extremely durable and weather resistant. On the negative side, unless you have a properly ventilated spray booth, application is difficult and seamless spot repairs are nearly impossible to perform. For me, the negatives outweigh the positives.
Ya figured that. Thanks Gordon. I’ve tried one bow finished with a home made version epoxy spray and the finish was less then desired as far as asthetics. Your right though it is very hard and durable. I got a lot of bleeding and blending of Colors when I tried it. I posted the end result here last year and it was just ok. Bow wasn’t ruined or anything but I obviously need to play around with my thicknesses I suspect. I made mine using 2 part epoxy ea40 then added acetone to thin. What mixes have you tried?
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I've used Thunderbird Epoxy Bow Finish. I've not experienced any issues with bleeding, but you really need to spray it on to get the best results. After the finish is applied you can buff it out just like Tru-Oil and it makes a very nice and durable finish. But spot repairs are nearly impossible. If you care about aesthetics (and I do), then you need to remove the old finish, make your repair and refinish the bow. After having to do that a few times, I went back to my old standby Tru-Oil - people are always banging up their bows and want them repaired...
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I've used Thunderbird Epoxy Bow Finish. I've not experienced any issues with bleeding, but you really need to spray it on to get the best results. After the finish is applied you can buff it out just like Tru-Oil and it makes a very nice and durable finish. But spot repairs are nearly impossible. If you care about aesthetics (and I do), then you need to remove the old finish, make your repair and refinish the bow. After having to do that a few times, I went back to my old standby Tru-Oil - people are always banging up their bows and want them repaired...
Awesome thanks. I may see about getting some of this to try it out.
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Still working on these bows…. I got the sapwood one sized with watery thin sinew glue I made from my scraps from processing the moose sinew for these bows plus a few extra scraps from previous. It took about 20 coats! Letting each dry to the touch each time till I got to the point of a noticeable shine when dried. This yew sapwood soaked it up like a sponge! Should hold very well indeed. The glue was very thin so good penetration into the wood pours and surface fibers. I also used a Grobet gimping file from my knife making days to put my surface grooves in. Ive used this technique a few times now and it’s a very good consistent way to get clean fine grooves on your glue surface. I do this with sinew and horn belly lams too. For the horn lams I use the courser grobet file. I use the finer one for sinew. Not sure where I bought these but they work awesome. I have used hack saw blades and other blades mounted in a scraper with success too. The key is to get them smooth and clean. Most important thing in my opinion is adequate sizing of very thin glue. Can’t stress that enough. The failures I’ve had on earlier build in past I attribute to lack of proper sizing. I grooved both bows with same fine file. I wire brushed after each and wiped down with damp cloth with acetone. I let them dry and started sizing. Like I said the one with sapwood took 20 coats of thin sinew glue and the heartwood only bow took three coats of 50/50 mix water and tb3. I used a burner in the stove to warm up the surface of each bow before sizing. The tb3 seeped into the grooves and fibers of the heartwood well and followed up with two more subsequent coats which hardened up nice yet still leaving the fine grooving visible. I will use this same 50/50 mix to soak my damp sinew bundles prior to applying on the bow. I will follow up with full strength glue and then wrap it tight with a cloth wrap. I will likley hot box this tb3 and sinew bow overnight. I’ve not done this before with other instances of using tb3 and it may not be necessary but I’m thinking at this point that I may. As for the sapwood one I’m going for one layer with a handle overlap into the fades. Sinew for Both limbs will be weighed and measured for length to balance out the sinew applied to each. I will likley do 30 grams on each limb and a handle section of 5-10 grams.
The two bundles seen in the pics are what I’ve got for the 2 bows. The big bundle is 104grams of good long moose back strap. The other is 19grams of washed moose back strap med- long strands. This is the bit that I started with on my chew experiment that ended in disaster. I rewashed it all and dried it out again and will reuse it. I hope to get them both backed today. Thanks for following along. Dave
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Here’s a pic of those file for those interested and the sinew I’m using and glue I made with the scraps. For the glue I just use a crock pot on warm setting for 2 days. I then blend it all up with a Braun mixer and let it go another 6 hours. Temps were kept below 80-90 degrees. I then cut up the gelatin into small chunks to dry for a few days with a fan blowing over them. This has made me great glue in the past.
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For the glue I just use a crock pot on warm setting for 2 days. I then blend it all up with a Braun mixer and let it go another 6 hours. Temps were kept below 80-90 degrees. I then cut up the gelatin into small chunks to dry for a few days with a fan blowing over them. This has made me great glue in the past.
what water/sinew ratio do you use to make glue? do you have to add water during the 2 days of slow cooking?
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For the glue I just use a crock pot on warm setting for 2 days. I then blend it all up with a Braun mixer and let it go another 6 hours. Temps were kept below 80-90 degrees. I then cut up the gelatin into small chunks to dry for a few days with a fan blowing over them. This has made me great glue in the past.
what water/sinew ratio do you use to make glue? do you have to add water during the 2 days of slow cooking?
I kept this batch quite thin so that I could use it for my sizing coats. But normally I make it little thicker. As far as ratio it really doesn’t matter in the end so long as you get a fairly firm gelitan mass that you can cut up into small chunks and let dry to 100% glue. It will be rock hard. I like to keep it fairly this so that it strains well too to get good clear glue free of most of the little bits and floaties. So no measurements on water to sinew. I just had basic estimates of 200-300 grams of sinew scraps and filled my crock pot up with water. I added another 500 mls by day two. Hope that helps. Here’s a pic of what I ended up with after 3 days of a fan blowing on my little chunks on drying racks.
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So I got my bows sinewed yesterday and wrapped. Here’s what I got after removing the wraps this am. See last 2 pics. As far as my set up and bundles pic one shows that laid out. Again as I mentioned earlier I sized both bows very well before getting here. I think this is key to success with sinew. I got a criss cross pattern on the sapwood one a bit more then I wanted but not a huge deal. I’ll smooth that out a bit more when it surface dries a little more. So. Here is where I’m seeing a difference already. I had suspected that the tb3 variant would have more mass retained. This seems to be the case so far. Time will tell. Both bows were weighed before sizing coats and laying down sinew. The weights recorded the following day includes the the addition of the back set string. The sapwood bow weighed 645.55gr before sizing and sinew. The day following sinew it weighed 797.07gr. That’s a difference of about 151gr give or take. The heartwood tb3 bow weighed little more to start at 675.25gr then 833.63 respectively after sinew. That is about 158.gr give or take. So we shall see how things go as the days go by. Gonna see how these measurements drop each day and record them down. I suspect it will take several weeks if not months to get to the point of bending these again. Anyway here are some pics.
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After 6 days of drying both bows are still loosing mass in water weight.
Heartwood only bow:
675gr - before sizing coats and tb3 and sinew.
833.63gr - just after 65-70gr sinew and any tb3 glue likley in fairly equal measure.
766.33gr - 6 days of drying.
I’ll keep monitoring the weights over next week or so and likley notice a drop in weight loss each day.
I’ll noticed using the moose back strap sinew it is much courser then deer. I’ve developed voids on the surface on both bows as they dry. It may not be an issue hopefully. I may fill in some of the larger ones to make me feel little better. We shall see. Thanks for looking
Sapwood/heartwood bow:
645.55gr - before any sinew or sizing coats or sinew glue 31 Jan.
797.07gr - just after sinew and all sizing coats and equal measure of hide glue.
726.99gr - 6 days of drying.
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Looking good Dave, Lots of chewing on them bows but feel sure it will work if your yaws don't get worn out. ;) :)
Pappy
Thanks pappy! Ya it’s gonna be lots of chewing for certain. I may have to split it up over a couple days. I’ve been toying with the idea of a spit bowl and letting it soak it there too to assist with the amount of sinew I’m gonna be dealing with.
Hahaha putting our find to use!! I love it!!!
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Oops my bad I didn't keep reading! But yeah I know what you mean about the taste. I have noticed the backstrap has more of a taste than the leg sinew too. I thought it was kinda gross right away but then after a little while I got used to it and now I honestly kind of like it. I think it might be one of those acquired taste things. But speaking to the ability to do it quick I just put 20 strands in my mouth at a time. 10 on each side of my mouth. Then take 10 out of one side and put 10 more new ones in on that side and keep on chewing as I apply them to the bow. This morning I did 1 full layer in 12 minutes this way. It can be pretty quick. Oh yeah and it also dries much more quickly. Faster than the hide glue method even because when you use the hide glue it makes a film on the surface of the sinew that traps the moisture in. When you chew it there isn't a film.
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When I get around to doing one with sinew I think I’ll stick with the hide glue. Just not really into the chewing on a dead animal unless it’s like a steak 🥩 or something like that. Not really into the gagging thing or anything rancid tasting. I’d probably do the projectile vomiting thing all over my bow. Makes me feel a little queasy just thinking about it.
Bows are looking great either way Dave. 👍
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So did you weigh the sinew and glue first and also the bow. Then weigh what you did not use.Ok about how much weight will the glue lose in drying process? I assume the sinew won’t lose weight.
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Oops my bad I didn't keep reading! But yeah I know what you mean about the taste. I have noticed the backstrap has more of a taste than the leg sinew too. I thought it was kinda gross right away but then after a little while I got used to it and now I honestly kind of like it. I think it might be one of those acquired taste things. But speaking to the ability to do it quick I just put 20 strands in my mouth at a time. 10 on each side of my mouth. Then take 10 out of one side and put 10 more new ones in on that side and keep on chewing as I apply them to the bow. This morning I did 1 full layer in 12 minutes this way. It can be pretty quick. Oh yeah and it also dries much more quickly. Faster than the hide glue method even because when you use the hide glue it makes a film on the surface of the sinew that traps the moisture in. When you chew it there isn't a film.
I gave it a shot anyway. I may try it on a single bow down the road and use leg tendon instead.
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When I get around to doing one with sinew I think I’ll stick with the hide glue. Just not really into the chewing on a dead animal unless it’s like a steak 🥩 or something like that. Not really into the gagging thing or anything rancid tasting. I’d probably do the projectile vomiting thing all over my bow. Makes me feel a little queasy just thinking about it.
Bows are looking great either way Dave. 👍
Thanks mike.
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So did you weigh the sinew and glue first and also the bow. Then weigh what you did not use.Ok about how much weight will the glue lose in drying process? I assume the sinew won’t lose weight.
Ya I measured out each bundle and the glue. The loss in mass will be moisture loss only. I figure once they get down to original weight plus about 75-80gr should be very close to fully dry. I still have some scrapes to do yet on both bows so more weight will be lost from this as well.
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I know it's too late to say this but one of the biggest reasons I don't use tite bond 3 over hide glue is because then you can't reuse the sinew if somehow the bow breaks or something goes wrong.
With hide glue you can just submerge the project in water to let the sinew rehydrate and it comes right off. You can then separate the sinew fibers. From there you can either freeze it wet, dry it out, or apply it to the next project.
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I know it's too late to say this but one of the biggest reasons I don't use tite bond 3 over hide glue is because then you can't reuse the sinew if somehow the bow breaks or something goes wrong.
With hide glue you can just submerge the project in water to let the sinew rehydrate and it comes right off. You can then separate the sinew fibers. From there you can either freeze it wet, dry it out, or apply it to the next project.
Thanks pierce. I do realize this is one of the downsides to using tb3. I was willing to take that chance to test out some things. Best case scenario is that it works well and holds up. Worst case is it breaks in an explosive way. If the tb3 and sinew combo itself fails and heartwood bow is still ok then I can alway strip off the tb3 and sinew and apply sinew traditional way.
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I’ve been trying to keep up with your build Dave.
Was looking forward to seeing what your thoughts were about the chewed sinew. I have never backed a bow with sinew but I have used it in lots of other applications. Really pretty amazing stuff.
I have noticed it clings to itself much better if I rehydrate it in my mouth than with just plain water.
I usually don’t so much chew it. I wet it down with my tongue and then just put it in my mouth and let it rehydrate. The cleaner and more refined the better. I actually can see how the process could work.
Would you have sized the bow with hide glue first?
Bjrogg
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Thanks bjorg. Ya I tried to chew it initially but it kinda grossed me out. I did find that it was a messy ordeal too. I noticed for me trying to unbunch the mess from my mouth was time consuming and was not an efficient way to lay sinew. In my opinion it was just plain messy and unorganized way of applying sinew. I also did find that if laying it down over an uneven surface with high reflex it had the tendency to lift off. I then tried to wrap it and that did work ok but I question the holding strength of just sinew alone with no glue added. Just my observations in trying it before I gave up on it and went back to my tried and tested way of doing it. It is very cool stuff when done right. My opinion is that it obviously can be done but not my preferred method for sure. I use a pretty thin mix for my hide glue when laying it down and it seems to work well for me. Too much heavy glue is self defeating with added mass. Just my opinions and observations.
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Ok I’m gonna throw out some questions on these two bow builds. I e had some concerns pop up after two weeks of letting them dry. So far here is what I have,
The heartwood only billet bow sinewed with tb3 retained about 4.5” reflex after removing back string.
The sapwood/heartwood bow sinewed with hide glue retained about 5.5” reflex after removing back string.
Both started with same reflex prior to adding 65-70 grams of sinew.
Another observation I noticed that the heartwood only bow took longer to dry and get to the point of no longer loosing mass. The last few days the bow remained the same mass.
The sapwood/heartwood version stopped loosing mass pretty well after the first week. Loosing very little the second week of any at all.
I did some sanding on both today and they look pretty good however some concerns have popped up.
There is some grain run off out towards the flipped tips on the heartwood bow. I’ve posted a few pics here. See first two. The sinew I laid down didn’t cover this area as I had decided against it wanting to keep the tips lighter. I still have some shaping and narrowing to do yet on them.
1. Should I just add a little more sinew out at the tips to cover these spots? Will that be enough to keep it together and prevent it from separation at run off?
2. Should I just add some rawhide to the back over the sinew and also cover out to the tips?
3. Should I add a back lamination of thin horn to this area to prevent separation at run off?
The sapwood bow is less of a concern but there is a knot out near one of the tips that I’m little worried about. Same questions above for this scenario. I did plan on removing the wrap of sinew at the ends of this bow when dry if I end up covering with rawhide.
Let me know your opinions and thoughts as to possible solutions I may be overlooking. Maybe I’m worried for nothing and let me know that too.
Thanks guys!
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I’m going to ask a question just for myself here. Could you trap the back of the bow and get rid of the runoff?
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I’m going to ask a question just for myself here. Could you trap the back of the bow and get rid of the runoff?
I could trap the back but it would be hard to avoid affecting the sinew layer already down.
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I thought about that but didn’t know if you could sand it after trapping it and get a decent finish. I really know nothing about working with sinew. I’m sure you’ll figure it out though. Both are looking great so far.
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I thought about that but didn’t know if you could sand it after trapping it and get a decent finish. I really know nothing about working with sinew. I’m sure you’ll figure it out though. Both are looking great so far.
Thanks mike. I’ll likley just add a little more sinew over these areas of concern and then rawhide back the whole lot for protection or even snakeskins possibly.
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So a quick update on these bows. I decided to just add some deer rawhide from my
buck hide this last season to the entire back of both. I am confident this should work just fine and set my mind at ease as well. I apply them with tb3 and then wrap them snug not tight with an old t shirt cut in to 1.5-2” wide strip. I wrap it up like a mummy and then let it dry overnight. I apply a pretty liberal amount of glue and pre stretched the rawhide after soaking them in warm water for about 30 mins. I wash the fleshy side with soap and warm water too then rinse well. I get them towel dabbed dry but thoroughly pliable and soft. Don’t want them too wet but not starting to dry up either. The wrap works well. And dose t leave too much of a pattern if kept medium tension when wrapping. Then I file the edges with a medium file at an slight angle downward from the top edge so as to not rip up my hide edge and glue line. Here’s some pics.
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Your bows always look great. You do seem to have a knack for making them. Both look great.
Great use of that buckskin too.👍
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I have been following and yet keeping my big opinionated mouth firmly shut. I have strong opinions on which will ultimately give the best performance, but that is MY opinion.
But I got to the point where I wanted to thank you for taking on this project and for your commitment to transparency. This is a really valuable experiment and you deserve a round of applause for taking the time and materials to do it!
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Your bows always look great. You do seem to have a knack for making them. Both look great.
Great use of that buckskin too.👍
Thanks Mike. Ya it’s cool to use your own stuff when you can. It is a slow project due to the drying times of the sinew. Hopefully soon start bending again and finish tillering to get them as close to 50-55lbs
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I have been following and yet keeping my big opinionated mouth firmly shut. I have strong opinions on which will ultimately give the best performance, but that is MY opinion.
But I got to the point where I wanted to thank you for taking on this project and for your commitment to transparency. This is a really valuable experiment and you deserve a round of applause for taking the time and materials to do it!
Thanks JW. I appreciate that. Ya I have some suspicions on how it will go too but my hope in the end is to learn something new and test out some things anyway.
Thanks for following along
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Dave I’m clapping. How much total mass did the backing add to the bow. Just curious?
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Dave I’m clapping. How much total mass did the backing add to the bow. Just curious?
The hide backing added about 15-20grams. The sinew itself was about 65-70grams plus another 10grams or so for the glue and size coatings.
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I shaped up my tips a bit more today and removed the braced back string whilst drying. Both maintained about 4.5” maybe little less. I suspect I’ll loose some of this as I continue to tiller them in next few days. Will definitely have to remove some belly wood these feel really heavy. They are around 60-61”ntn. I’m not cutting an arrow shelf in these. I may glue on a sliver of something later for a minimal shelf with little bit of horn. I’m thinking I may use some cane strip wrap for handles on these. Would be a cool look. I got some of this from pat here. Thanks for following along
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I haven't had anything to say, just sitting back and watching a top notch craftsman at work. I agree with Muskyman, your bows always look great. Beautiful aesthetics and superb workmanship.
Mark
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I haven't had anything to say, just sitting back and watching a top notch craftsman at work. I agree with Muskyman, your bows always look great. Beautiful aesthetics and superb workmanship.
Mark
Much appreciated mark! Thanks for following along. Hopefully they will bow and not explode.
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Those are coming along nicely.
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Those are coming along nicely.
Thanks Gordon.
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Man they are looking very good, I love raw hide backing,especially when using my own from one I killed, don't do it much anymore but love the look and protection it gives, I don't do much competition but it dose take it out of the self bow class so I shy away from it unless I feel it's really necessary . :)
Pappy
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Man they are looking very good, I love raw hide backing,especially when using my own from one I killed, don't do it much anymore but love the look and protection it gives, I don't do much competition but it dose take it out of the self bow class so I shy away from it unless I feel it's really necessary . :)
Pappy
Thanks Pappy. Yes a little protection goes a long way with yew.
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Testing photo drop
Hopefully this works for better quality pics. I finally got to get a little more done and just got this bow at low brace. Figured I’d work on the heartwood one first as it’s the one I’m more suspect of. It came out of floor tiller pretty good. Still need some work on the outers I think and little scrape poss on the inner of the right limb. I figured I’d post these pics and see how they turn out and get to work on this one.
https://flic.kr/p/2pzvuxw
https://flic.kr/p/2pzp1gb
https://flic.kr/p/2pzp1gb
https://www.flickr.com/photos/193575471@N05/shares/3sLUjCz0D4
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This is unstrung after a couple hours braced and pulling to 21”. My weight scale needs new battery so will have to update my draw weight. I think if I were to guess it’s around 48-50lbs right now at 20”. Bend looks pretty decent so far. I lost about 2-2.5” of reflex. I’m at about 2” reflex now. Will likley loose little more yet. Kinda what I was expecting to see with this one.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/wQBFYyTVdmBN7S3k9
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Dave, these bows are turning out beautifully.
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Thanks hamish! Much appreciated.
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I got an hour to work on getting the other sapwood stave bow floor tillered and braced up today in between my sap runs and boiling my syrup. Lots of sap running here now. Gotta get while the gettin is good. Anyway. The reflex of this wonky yew Bow ended up with about an inch more give or take then the heartwood only bow. Both as you recall had the same amount of sinew apply 65-70grams. The major difference with the way it was applied. The heartwood version had its sinew put on with tb3 and the sapwood version with standard sinew glue which I made here. I had back strung both for about 3 weeks monitoring the weight loss of each over this time. The heartwood bow is a little heavier in mass which is no surprise as it’s got more heartwood relative to the other. The interesting thing I’ve noticed about the two bows early on at brace is that after leaving both braced up for several hours to let thing settle nice the sapwood version retained more reflex. Both bows have been pulled to about 20” approx. both feel about the same weights. No draw scale at moment. As far as mass of both bows at the moment they are pretty close the same around 650grams. Both are about 60”ntn. The sapwood version is a semi hollow limb. I decided to do this as it had little more crown then I liked. This helps to even out the stresses a bit. Bend looks good and will continue tomorrow.
Observations,
Heartwood only bow—-
Prior to floor tiller and bracing 4.25” reflex
After braced for approx 4 hours immediately returned to 2” reflex
30 mins resting it crept back to 3.25” reflex
Sapwood bow—-
Prior to floor tiller and bracing just over 5” reflex
After braced for approx 4 hours immediately returned to 3.25” reflex
30 mins resting it crept back to around 5” reflex.
I half expected this out of the heartwood bow that had tb3 binding the sinew. The sapwood version held much more reflex so far.
I realize it’s still early on in the process but it kind of confirms my suspicions even this early. The benefits of using hide or sinew type glue as opposed to tb3 is noticeable even now. I’m sure both will be decent shooters. Will be interesting if it becomes noticeable in the way they shoot and on the cast of each.
Here’s some pics link below for better quality pics
https://imgur.com/a/E8BqOAM
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Testing out pictures uploaded to pa using imgr
(https://i.imgur.com/KqV84gf.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/gkBs46o.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/grUFaGI.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/Z1SUxRo.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/52Cvmi4.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/GCIBjn9.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/Bd0oOmV.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/zvGFvCP.jpg)
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Since no one else has said anything, I will. Thanks for taking the time to switch, it's great to see pictures that are large enough to see details and really show the finer points of the bow. Not only do you not have to futz around with resizing, but everybody looking at the forum gets a much better experience out of it.
Mark
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Since no one else has said anything, I will. Thanks for taking the time to switch, it's great to see pictures that are large enough to see details and really show the finer points of the bow. Not only do you not have to futz around with resizing, but everybody looking at the forum gets a much better experience out of it.
Mark
Thanks mark! It took me long enough…
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Beautiful work for sure, you do some awesome work. :) Pictures turned out great also. :)
Pappy
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Dave what did total mass come out at? Being yes those probably light in mass .
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Those are looking nice Dave
Bjrogg
PS I never did figure out how to post pictures from Imgur. Maybe if I didn’t get distracted by all the pictures of pretty ladies
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Beautiful work for sure, you do some awesome work. :) Pictures turned out great also. :)
Pappy
Thanks Pappy! Ya I figured it was time to figure that pictures thing out.
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Those are looking nice Dave
Bjrogg
PS I never did figure out how to post pictures from Imgur. Maybe if I didn’t get distracted by all the pictures of pretty ladies
Thanks bjorgg! Ya I get distracted easily at times by certain things….
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Dave what did total mass come out at? Being yes those probably light in mass .
The final mass of the heartwood only bow is around 648grams. Still a little more to shave off yet.
The sapwood one is little lighter at 630grams and I have not shaped the handle yet. I estimate it will be around 600-610grams. I went a semi hollow limb design on this one due to the fairly high crown.
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Interesting. You going to flight test those?
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Yes i should. we got heavy rain right now. Ill speed test both these bows when i get them fully tillered. I have my theory on which one will be faster but it should be interesting.
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Both bows look great, Dave! Very interesting observations. I’ve had more trouble with yew bows than any other bow wood. The only one that I had success with was a sinew-backed sapwood-heartwood yew recurve. I appreciate you sharing your work.
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Both bows look great, Dave! Very interesting observations. I’ve had more trouble with yew bows than any other bow wood. The only one that I had success with was a sinew-backed sapwood-heartwood yew recurve. I appreciate you sharing your work.
Thanks Will. I’ve broken a few of them too. When they work though they sure do work well.
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It’s funny how it seems like every time I get a yew stave people start talking about how they tend to break.. well I’ve only had 2 both birthday presents. Got one a few weeks ago and it seems pristine. Bark is still on it but I can’t find a knot anywhere on the back. That’s one of my reasons for following Dave’s thread so close. Well that’s not exactly true, I follow all Dave’s builds. Probably back this one with rawhide or maybe make it my first try with sinew..
Both really looking good though Dave. Looking forward to seeing them finished..
I’ve never done a speed test. I might have to see if I can find a chronograph somewhere to test a few of my bows..
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Yew is a great bow wood, but it's still just wood. Some bowyers abuse it, not following the grain, or underbuilding it for its draw length, and it can break.
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It’s funny how it seems like every time I get a yew stave people start talking about how they tend to break.. well I’ve only had 2 both birthday presents. Got one a few weeks ago and it seems pristine. Bark is still on it but I can’t find a knot anywhere on the back. That’s one of my reasons for following Dave’s thread so close. Well that’s not exactly true, I follow all Dave’s builds. Probably back this one with rawhide or maybe make it my first try with sinew..
Both really looking good though Dave. Looking forward to seeing them finished..
I’ve never done a speed test. I might have to see if I can find a chronograph somewhere to test a few of my bows..
Thanks Mike. Ya rawhide is a good option for yew self bows. Imo. I get mine shot in and fully tillered before then though just to make sure all is good with the bow. The backing is mainly for protection from dings and dents on the relatively soft sapwood. It also gives a great canvas for artistic flare for dyes and stains. I got my chrono off Amazon few years ago. Watch for the sales and get best price.
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Yew is a great bow wood, but it's still just wood. Some bowyers abuse it, not following the grain, or underbuilding it for its draw length, and it can break.
I agree hamish. It’s very different then hardwoods like Osage or or bl or other white woods. My explosions or failures typically happened when I tried to over correct with too much heat. It can become brittle if heated too many times in same spot. I find steam better for bigger corrections. It doesn’t overheat the wood.
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Well that actually makes me feel a little better because I’m kind of a steam guy when it comes to straightening. I found out pretty quick I don’t have the patience to stand around with a heat gun. To be honest I shouldn’t have to do much to this stave.. I don’t think anyway. Got a little deflex but not much. What kind of chronograph do you have Dave? I’ve looked at them a time or two. About hundred bucks to one fifty on the lower end from what I’ve seen.
Competition and Caldwell seem to be what I’ve seen mostly.
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Hey mike. Here’s the one I got. Or very similar. I had the Caldwell one but it didn’t work well for me and I sent it back.
https://a.co/d/czZxzsE
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I kinda figured the cheap ones were probably not the best. Not sure if I want to drop $250 plus on one to be honest. Mainly because I just don’t build enough bows to justify the money. But honestly I’ve spent enough on my attempt to learn flint knapping to buy 2 or 3 of them. 😂
I might try one of the cheaper ones, maybe. Also might see if I can find an archery shop around here that has one and take my bows there and test them..
Thanks for the reply.
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sooo, a quick update on these bows! They both tilered out to 50lbs at 28'. both bending very similar profiles. both are approx 60" ntn and just under 1.70"-1.75" at widest to the taper out towards the tips. Ill do more speed testing but very promising. the sapwood/heartwood bow shot a little faster according to the chrono shooting a 500grain arrow. 182fps. the heartwood only bow also shot very well at 178fps. the sapwood bow felt faster when shooting it. both had zero handshock which a little surprising to me being both symetrical bows. both feel very well balanced. more speed testing will be done soon to get clearer picture of what is going on. I got eager to get out and do some shooting today and had these good to go. proir to shooting these bows today i noted the folowing on reflex,
heartwood bow. at rest had started out with about 4.5" prior to stringing up and shooting
immediatley after unstrung held 3"
after about 10-15mins came back to about 4"
sapwood/heartwood bow. at rest had started out with about 5.5" prior to stringing up and shooting
immediatly after unstrung held 4"
after about 10-15mins came back to about 5"
These results are not terribly surprising and pretty much what i expected.
here are some pics enjoy. ill post the video clips in seperate post after.
https://imgur.com/bpiGP5D
https://imgur.com/eHmo39L
https://imgur.com/tW5LtUk
https://imgur.com/2vKwEww
https://imgur.com/PodOwyE
https://imgur.com/ptgeCQ2
https://imgur.com/4H3oWEZ
https://imgur.com/E7jUqZU
https://imgur.com/bv0SPwB
https://imgur.com/DjrENqn
https://imgur.com/5vFL1iS
https://imgur.com/eTyeV4s
(https://i.imgur.com/PodOwyE.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/tW5LtUk.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/ptgeCQ2.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/2vKwEww.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/5vFL1iS.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/DjrENqn.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/bv0SPwB.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/E7jUqZU.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/4H3oWEZ.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/eTyeV4s.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/bpiGP5D.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/eHmo39L.jpg)
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Short video clips.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/FToG6m5HLBAyDVUK9
https://photos.app.goo.gl/oqcXqPF2rPzANP5k8
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Those two bows look outstanding. It looked like you didn't get back to 28" on the videos...? If that's the case, a full draw shot should really post some impressive numbers. Congrats and thanks! :OK
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Those two bows look outstanding. It looked like you didn't get back to 28" on the videos...? If that's the case, a full draw shot should really post some impressive numbers. Congrats and thanks! :OK
Thanks bob. Yes you are correct. I just Re watched the videos and ya I’m not fully back all the way. I tend to snap shoot out of habit. I’ll do some more and repost.
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Awesome bows Dave but, I never thought they would turn out otherwise. Impressive speed too. I agree that it doesn’t look like you made full draw.
Awesome job, as usual..
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Awesome bows Dave but, I never thought they would turn out otherwise. Impressive speed too. I agree that it doesn’t look like you made full draw.
Awesome job, as usual..
Thanks Mike. Very kind. I’m gonna redo a shoot if wether good tomorrow
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gonna be away for a week and wanted some feedback and opinions on paint job on these bows. in pencil Ive marked out a basic layout of what i may do on paint on the back of these bows. Let me know what you think and any susgestions. Im likly gong to just use an acrylic craft type paint in earthy reds greens and black with some white.
(https://i.imgur.com/1CcZ2VY.jpg)
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That's a very fancy design brother Dave...and I'm sure that YOU can make it look great. It reminds me of some of the bows that Ed Scott made...which are very cool. I'm looking forward to seeing this beautiful bow when you are finished.
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That's a very fancy design brother Dave...and I'm sure that YOU can make it look great. It reminds me of some of the bows that Ed Scott made...which are very cool. I'm looking forward to seeing this beautiful bow when you are finished.
thanks bob! ya those are very nice. cant wait to finish these bows up. may have to wait till i get back though.
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Let me know what you think and any susgestions.
Boy, that's a dangerous thing to ask. (A) ;D
My $0.02 (CDN, at that) is I don't like the fiddly, busy designs as much as just colours. You've done some amazing looking bows with colour fades between red/orange/yellow and others and I much prefer bows with that than the designs.
Mark
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Let me know what you think and any susgestions.
Boy, that's a dangerous thing to ask. (A) ;D
My $0.02 (CDN, at that) is I don't like the fiddly, busy designs as much as just colours. You've done some amazing looking bows with colour fades between red/orange/yellow and others and I much prefer bows with that than the designs.
Mark
Thanks Mark. ya its a mixed bag of responses sometimes but i like the feedback regardless. sometimes i get hung up on a bow for a while trying to decide how and what to finish it with. likley overthinking it as per usual... I too like the faded and blended stains on bows. i think they look sharp. just scouting a different look.
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Bows turned out sweet as is, Dave!
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Thanks wooddamon1. I’m still in decision mode 😎
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Amazing build thank you for sharing
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awesome bows!!
as far as decoration plain rawhide is enough attractive to me
I like you pencil base too but I'd do it in a very freehand way
In my mind this kind of decoration has to be less perfect to be perfect )P(
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Amazing build thank you for sharing
Thanks razorbak!
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awesome bows!!
as far as decoration plain rawhide is enough attractive to me
I like you pencil base too but I'd do it in a very freehand way
In my mind this kind of decoration has to be less perfect to be perfect )P(
Thanks GlisGlis. I know what you mean! I tend to suffer from ocd when it comes to decorating my bows. It will not be perfect for sure but I have to be careful not to over think it and just start decorating or painting. I’ll use the pencil marks as my reference anyway.
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Those two both turned out great, Dave. I’m sure however you finish them up they will look Amazing.
I’m currently working on a 65” heartwood yew recurve that I plan to sinew-back. Would you be able to let me know a couple details?
- what are the profile dimensions, and is it a straight pyramid design?
- did you chase a ring on the back before sinew-backing? And
- at what point in the tillering process did you sinew back the heartwood bow?
Thanks for posting your build and excellent work! Much appreciated!
Will
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Wow, just read through the thread and checked out all yer pics and just WOW. I am looking forward to seeing your end products. Very inspiring as I a getting back into the bow making habit.
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Those two both turned out great, Dave. I’m sure however you finish them up they will look Amazing.
I’m currently working on a 65” heartwood yew recurve that I plan to sinew-back. Would you be able to let me know a couple details?
- what are the profile dimensions, and is it a straight pyramid design?
- did you chase a ring on the back before sinew-backing? And
- at what point in the tillering process did you sinew back the heartwood bow?
Thanks for posting your build and excellent work! Much appreciated!
Will
Thanks will. Very kind. Ya I have no problem at all posting. Sometimes I wonder if anyone reads them but always glad to hear when it benefits someone out there. I’ve got a lot of guys on here to thank myself for helping me through some builds. Keeps the community thriving! Always glad to share.
These bow are both very close in dimensions
They are roughly 60” ntn and 1.70-1.75” at widest out of fades. They are not pyramid designs per se but loosely based on it. I have made several pyramid style bows but I tend to lately gravitate to this modified version of it. They only narrow slightly 1.75” to 1.5” wide about 10” from the tips. The limbs narrow to about 1/2”-3/8” at the tips from there. I did not chase a ring on the heartwood only bow. I was selective on my belly drops though when splicing them. I wanted very dense heartwood with similar grain orientation on both ends. Not just for looks but for function. They should both return to rest at same time and using two very similar pieces of heartwood helps. I had a concern early on about a small section at the end towards the tip of what looked like grain run off on the one end of the heartwood bow but did not seem to be an issue after the rawhide and sinew. Even with floor tillering and drawing to 20” it was solid. I think it must have just been a section of rings direction shift down the limb to give the appearance of run off. I glued on handles blocks as I have larger hands and like bigger handles. I had floor tillered these bow and drawn to about 20” draw prior to laying down the sinew. If I recall they both came in around 50-55lbs at 20” from low brace height prior to doing sinew. I could have pretillered down to about 30-40lbs in retrospect as I had a fair bit of wood removal after the sinew cured. I weighed each bow around the same mass prior to sinew. Each bow got measured bundles of sinew the weighed 65-70 grams. I lairs it down in one go. I don’t normally do it that way but again was testing some things. I did not apply the sinew all the way to the tips. As you recall from the earlier posts in this thread I used 2 very different methods of laying the sinew as well to test out some things. I was pleased and surprised at how well the heartwood bow did perform really being that it was sinewed with tb3. The tb3 glue did add a little more weight as expected in the end for the heartwood only bow but it didn’t hurt it much if at all. My conclusions so far on these two bows is basically this, the bow with hide glue and sinew performed little better but only marginally really. Would I make another tb3 sinew bow? Absolutely! Very happy with it. It retained about an inch less reflex compared to other one but again not a deal breaker. I posted some early videos of me shooting and got decent speeds from both bows. The heartwood bow did end up being about 2-3fps slower but still shot low 180’s with 10gpp. The other one shot mid 180’s with 10gpp. I’d hunt with either bow. The interesting part will be over time in the field will the tb3 sinewed heartwood bow be less susceptible to moisture effects??? We shall see. Anyway I would make another and likley will soon.
As far as the tips. I kept them stiffer and just narrowed them for mass reduction. Also made sure to add my flipped tips prior to sinew. I also added rawhide overtop my sinew fyi. It didn’t seem to effect my speed much at all. I thin down my rawhide to almost parchments though to save on weight. I give the sinew a good sand prior to glueing down rawhide with tb3. The next tb3 and sinew bow I do I will be incorporating a hot box. It took forever to dry. The hide glue variant dried much quicker.
Hope that answers your questions. If not reach out anytime I don’t mind at all. I’ll be making more heartwood only bows soon too as I have more belly drops to use. The z splice worked great too and is a great option to salvage that precious heartwood instead of in the burn pile.
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Wow, just read through the thread and checked out all yer pics and just WOW. I am looking forward to seeing your end products. Very inspiring as I a getting back into the bow making habit.
Thanks man. Glad to hear someone is reading them and potentially getting
Something from them 😁. Very kind of you to say. Thanks.
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Thank you Dave! I really appreciate the detailed response. I will follow your lead and hope for similar results. Much appreciated.
Will
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finished up these bows. they turned out very well and very happy with them. I ended up using leather stain to do a blended colors scheme of yellow red and black. I may just leave this one as is as i like the simplicity of it and love the yew color. this bow held 5 1/2' reflex after shooting in. It also has a semi hollow limb design that I did to compensate for the higher crown on this stave. Some stats for those who can't remember way back when i posted them,,, these bows are both approx 60" ntn and about a 1 3/4" out of fades narrowing towards the tips. Both ended up at 50lbs draw at 28". The sapwood/heartwood bow is a little faster and lighter in mass. It also held about an inch more of relfex then the Heartwood only bow. I ended up doing a basic pattern on the heartwood bow and did a bamboo cane strip handle wrap which I stained black and brown. I added the beaver tail arrow pass too. I will likley add an arrow pass the the other bow as well. thanks for looking!
Sapwood/Heartwood/sinew bow:
(https://i.imgur.com/LXfK9H2.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/cNhd2f0.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/RJnQwlu.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/iehNpwE.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/m0l0V6W.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/1fQoSiF.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/6h2EX5V.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/2XuWsVu.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/fiZMV2u.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/650VN96.jpg)
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some pics of the heartwood only bow...
Pat, you made recognize the cane wrap. This is the stuff you sent me! it worked out great. thanks again.
Heartwood/sinew bow:
(https://i.imgur.com/rqXkky5.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/TDVA46X.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/IYkOkbp.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/o2xSOXr.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/p9pRfDF.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/8WHcHbV.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/RYr02fm.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/4gif3Gj.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/qUDqYqQ.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/VFZ79Xp.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/gRUO9dW.jpg)
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Wow! Very beautiful bows! Like everything about them. Nice painting and I like that handle wrap.
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Absolutely amazing you sir are a fantastic bowyer
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Stunning Job on these bows Dave.
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Thanks guys! It was an adventure making these. My conclusion as to the tb3 glue with sinew… it works! It also held reflex quite well. My thoughts are that I would do it again but would use a hot box to aid the drying a bit. Thank for following along and now onto the next project.
Cheers
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finished up these bows. they turned out very well and very happy with them. I ended up using leather stain to do a blended colors scheme of yellow red and black.
You went with the fade, awesome! (-S
Those both look fantastic and really complement the very sublime tones of the yew really well. Absolutely top notch, Dave.
Mark
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Those are beautiful bows Dave! You need to test them for flight . They will compete is my guess.
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Those bows are really well executed. I am impressed.
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finished up these bows. they turned out very well and very happy with them. I ended up using leather stain to do a blended colors scheme of yellow red and black.
You went with the fade, awesome! (-S
Those both look fantastic and really complement the very sublime tones of the yew really well. Absolutely top notch, Dave.
Mark
Thanks mark. Ya I got laying it out and it just looked a little busy so I simplify it and glad I did.
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Those are beautiful bows Dave! You need to test them for flight . They will compete is my guess.
Thanks Arvin. I do plan to continue testing them further. We shall see…
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Those bows are really well executed. I am impressed.
Thanks Gordon! Much appreciated
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Excellent, as usual Dave. Really like the triangles. Both great looking bows.
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Thanks Mike!
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Hers a couple pics showing the original r/d yew billet bow I made while back. It’s the top one. The next one down is the heartwood only billet belly drops from the bow above it and then the full stave yew bow bottom. You can see the difference a little sinew makes. They all shoot nice but I have to say I still prefer the r/d yew billet bow as far as smoothness and shooting pleasure. It’s probably one of my most pleasant shooters and accurate.
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Wow…you really did a nice job on those two. I really like how you finished the rawhide backings. Excellent work! I appreciate the details on both bows. I’m in the middle of a sinew-backed heartwood yew recurve, thanks in part to your work on here. Much appreciated!
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Thanks Will! Best of luck on your build. Keep us posted.