Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: M2A on December 30, 2023, 12:52:47 am
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Hey Folks. Had a rough second half of this year. Missed the whole apple harvest as i was laid up. lots of time to think. Been able to do some knapping and working on arrows the last few weeks but sure have missed working on staves. Wasn't sure for a while I'd be able to do that again. looking at all the staves i collected in the last 10 years and all the work involved in cutting and splitting and all the potential bows i have not made yet was pretty depressing. Lucky for me everything worked out well in the long run and got the green light from the doc about 2 weeks ago to do whatever. Still some slight issues but much better than things could have been. Time to move on and not look back. Started back to shooting but 50 lbs is a bit much so been shooting a 35 lb test bow i made a few years ago, tool marks, no finish but it was perfect and so glad i had it. That all said time to try and move up in weight. Plan is 3 bows this winter moving up in weight with each one. I always have been so greatful for all the information I have taken from this forum. All the knowledge shared and all the amazing bows i have seen. Always have enjoyed following along with the build a longs. So figured why not give it a shot my self. So make suggestion, be critical, or just follow along and enjoy its all good. If part 1 works ok and i can do timely there will be 2 more. So lets get started.....
One style i dont have is a good simple "D" bow from locust complete with diamond nocks. Made a few over the years but never kept any of them. So a good place to start. I like the idea of how efficent this style is with resources. Got this log from the cordwood processing pile. Looked nice and straight with average rings and few knots. Split it a few weeks after they dropped it off last August so its been under cover for the last year plus.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53423239381_ff9a9641c8.jpg) (https://www.flickr.com/gp/158435722@N02/8M8pr45a79)IMG_5062 (https://www.flickr.com/gp/158435722@N02/8M8pr45a79) by Mike Allridge (https://www.flickr.com/photos/158435722@N02/), on Flickr
I got lucky and the piece i am using is a belly split. Split almost perfect down one early growth ring. no knots but 2 swirled grain places that i hope to remove roughing out. Could be straighter but hope to take care of that later on the caul with the heat gun. It split a bit funny on one end and have some grain run out but should be able to over come that with the width I have. Here's what I have to work with.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53422316752_f12b67a855.jpg) (https://www.flickr.com/gp/158435722@N02/y92n56bQYe)IMG_5797 (https://www.flickr.com/gp/158435722@N02/y92n56bQYe) by Mike Allridge (https://www.flickr.com/photos/158435722@N02/), on Flickr
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53422316787_0c60f46224.jpg) (https://www.flickr.com/gp/158435722@N02/7e03Jc340j)IMG_5798 (https://www.flickr.com/gp/158435722@N02/7e03Jc340j) by Mike Allridge (https://www.flickr.com/photos/158435722@N02/), on Flickr
Average for weight. But I think locust like this has a better tension/compression ratio and does not fret as easy as denser material, just a theory I have from my own experience. Plus I am only looking for 42ish lbs out of this bow it should work well. Youll notice the growth rings in the center of the stave are too tight and have too much early wood but I should have enough thinkness with the outer 3-4 rings so that i hope is not an issue.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53423669545_bd9e279b97.jpg) (https://www.flickr.com/gp/158435722@N02/JJ7k2U2HW6)IMG_5799 (https://www.flickr.com/gp/158435722@N02/JJ7k2U2HW6) by Mike Allridge (https://www.flickr.com/photos/158435722@N02/), on Flickr
I chased a ring last weekend, 1 above the one that will be the back of the bow.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53423397563_3ac0bb7fc2.jpg) (https://www.flickr.com/gp/158435722@N02/1923wj1h4n)IMG_5801 (https://www.flickr.com/gp/158435722@N02/1923wj1h4n) by Mike Allridge (https://www.flickr.com/photos/158435722@N02/), on Flickr
and ended up with it like so.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53423669980_1c822d6266.jpg) (https://www.flickr.com/gp/158435722@N02/5a2o92EN6i)IMG_5802 (https://www.flickr.com/gp/158435722@N02/5a2o92EN6i) by Mike Allridge (https://www.flickr.com/photos/158435722@N02/), on Flickr
back is sealed up with shellac until I remove that ring then I will Shellac it up again to prevent any chance of drying checks.
So this weekend I be reducing and finding the best way to lay out the bow. Maybe even get the last ring removed. I'll be starting at 1.5" wide and if I can will reduce that during the tillering. Planning on 60-62 for ntn lenght, I need to see how things lay out on the stave before i make that call.
Anyways, Thats where things stand now. looking forward to more shop time this weekend.
Mike
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Lookin great. Following this!
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Glad you are feeling better. I’ll be following along as well. Never built a locus bow myself but like the look of the wood. Looks like a nice piece to start with.
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lovely stave and very nice dark colour of the late wood!
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Glad you’re on the mend. I wish my black locust around here looked that good! Interesting theory about ring ratio and frets - I need to ponder that a bit. Either way looking forward to following your build.
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Good luck with it, Mike. Glad you are feeling better. Learned a lot from your previous builds. I’ll be watching. I love black locust bows!
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Thanks fellas!
I'd suggest to keep your eye out for some Muskyman. Easier for me to find nice straighter pieces of locust than anything else.
Kidder maybe I explained it wrong. Its not so much the ratio as it is locust with a little lighter mass in general, faster growing stuff so wider early wood and late wood. 1st stave i have tried on this tree so fingers crossed. But similar staves have worked out well for me. I think it less tension force. Have staves from a tree with late wood hard as glass and it works good too so maybe i need need a bit more research in that.
Got a good bit done over the weekend. Used a draw knife to take the grain run out a little bit at a time until i was close to my 1.5" width, then a rasp to to complete. Not how i like to do it but didnt want any of that run out left in the stave if i could help it then a rasp to get the final width.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53432986557_63d2cda876.jpg) (https://www.flickr.com/gp/158435722@N02/4W84S5721s)IMG_5808 (https://www.flickr.com/gp/158435722@N02/4W84S5721s) by Mike Allridge (https://www.flickr.com/photos/158435722@N02/), on Flickr
Not much room to spare with the width but think it will be fine. I was able to get this out tho. not sure what they call these but its not a knot. Not sure how it would affect things if it was on the back but had a bow break on me when i had one on the edge. But its all gone now.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53434060158_af48bf7660.jpg) (https://www.flickr.com/gp/158435722@N02/83zxdo9Gi2)IMG_5811 (https://www.flickr.com/gp/158435722@N02/83zxdo9Gi2) by Mike Allridge (https://www.flickr.com/photos/158435722@N02/), on Flickr
Here the stave is after getting it to 1.5"
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53434235829_bd699de0e3.jpg) (https://www.flickr.com/gp/158435722@N02/L0LR35f675)IMG_5812 (https://www.flickr.com/gp/158435722@N02/L0LR35f675) by Mike Allridge (https://www.flickr.com/photos/158435722@N02/), on Flickr
Plans are to leave the middle 50% at 1.5" and taper each outer limb from there so laid that out and cut down to the line. Hope to leave the nocks at 7/8 but may have to take them down some yet.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53434064973_2f94486370.jpg) (https://www.flickr.com/gp/158435722@N02/7Jb7e4NKok)IMG_5818 (https://www.flickr.com/gp/158435722@N02/7Jb7e4NKok) by Mike Allridge (https://www.flickr.com/photos/158435722@N02/), on Flickr
I got more done but short on time so hope to that in the next day or 2. Might be a few days before I am back in he shop.
Have a great new Year folks.
Mike
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Very cool. I don’t think we have much of it up here but I’m interested in how this build goes. Watching eagerly
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Thanks Dave, I am pretty close to its northern native region according to a USAD Forestry map. My best guess is that it move up the Ohio river valley and stayed close to the banks as its range expanded. I have seen original land surveys from the late 1700's of the area and a few property markers along the banks of the Monongahela river were marked by locust trees. Not sure how far its range has expanded with the help of people but think its pretty vast.
With the front profile complete I figured good of time as any to remove a thin ring i was using to protect the back of the potential bow and get down to the ring I want to use for the back. I could have done this before, but its nice to do that last ring and take my time to do it well. so back to it with the draw knife and a scraper.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53434067573_dc3a66bd07.jpg) (https://www.flickr.com/gp/158435722@N02/Mv784J0W4e)IMG_5825 (https://www.flickr.com/gp/158435722@N02/Mv784J0W4e) by Mike Allridge (https://www.flickr.com/photos/158435722@N02/), on Flickr
That completed I moved on to rough out the thickness. Figured I would start with 3/4" across the whole piece. I suppose the middle of the bow(handle) will finish up around 1/2"+ and the tips being about 3/8"at the nocks, so plenty think but easier for me to use a rasp and card scraper to get it to start bending. Cant put wood back on if you get to thin roughing out :)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53434246084_157c1aa98f.jpg) (https://www.flickr.com/gp/158435722@N02/a69XYcsa30)IMG_5827 (https://www.flickr.com/gp/158435722@N02/a69XYcsa30) by Mike Allridge (https://www.flickr.com/photos/158435722@N02/), on Flickr
Back of the bow is on the left and have my thickness line down both sides.
Pretty basic to remove the extra wood on the belly but just in case someone is new.
I remove corners first. Down to the line or close to it.
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Then remove the center.
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It could be easier if you mark those angled surfaces with a pencil or marker so that when the ink is gone you are down to your line.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53434350295_8465e8f82f.jpg) (https://www.flickr.com/gp/158435722@N02/Bwm3so2688)IMG_5830 (https://www.flickr.com/gp/158435722@N02/Bwm3so2688) by Mike Allridge (https://www.flickr.com/photos/158435722@N02/), on Flickr
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Finished side profile roughed out.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53433921436_4490fe2f7d.jpg) (https://www.flickr.com/gp/158435722@N02/5063a74494)IMG_5831 (https://www.flickr.com/gp/158435722@N02/5063a74494) by Mike Allridge (https://www.flickr.com/photos/158435722@N02/), on Flickr
Hope to get some time today to start getting it floor tillered. And think i forgot to mention the plan is for 62" ntn. so i did cut the length leaving 1" for lower nock and 1.5" for the upper nock. so its 64.5" long.
Thanks, Mike
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I like it. That’s a good technique
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Thanks Dave, pretty straight forward simple and I like simple. 8)
After getting the stave 3/4" end to end I need to try and thin the stave down. I will leave a 4" handle area go for now and work out from there. Marking the limbs half way between the "handle" and tips I mark up the outer half with a pencil.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53441696711_4eec7a0870.jpg) (https://www.flickr.com/gp/158435722@N02/8xeY2S29i3)IMG_5832 (https://www.flickr.com/gp/158435722@N02/8xeY2S29i3) by Mike Allridge (https://www.flickr.com/photos/158435722@N02/), on Flickr
Then proceed to remove the lines with my farrier rasp. Then file out the tool marks until its rather smooth again. Next I mark out the entire limb and repeat the process.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53442014729_600e1c6a04.jpg) (https://www.flickr.com/gp/158435722@N02/4gj1MAN002)IMG_5833 (https://www.flickr.com/gp/158435722@N02/4gj1MAN002) by Mike Allridge (https://www.flickr.com/photos/158435722@N02/), on Flickr
I do change the the mid point each time so I do not get a step in the center of the limb. I picked this tip up here and wish i could remember from who. But works well for me giving me a good limb taper.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53442014869_5b65ccbae8.jpg) (https://www.flickr.com/gp/158435722@N02/B6011iw9Yr)IMG_5834 (https://www.flickr.com/gp/158435722@N02/B6011iw9Yr) by Mike Allridge (https://www.flickr.com/photos/158435722@N02/), on Flickr
5 cycles of doing this on each limb has got them bending just a little but getting limb thickness down enough I think its time to put the farrier rasp down and use a less aggressive rasp to continue. It dont take much wood removal at this point to change things. It would be nice to have it floor tillered before the weekend but not sure Ill have that much time. So far so good :)
Mike
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Looks good. Will be nice to see it bending.
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Following, I like your taper technique. Glad to hear you're doing better health-wise.
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Got a bit side tracked Dave but do hope to start tillering next.
Thanks Wooddamon. Done it that way on the last several bows and has been working well for me.
Got the things pretty evened up and the floor tillered pretty good. I still have some mass to remove from the handle area and plan to slowly work at that but would rather not get that area bending too fast too soon. Also I do not like to try and heat in reflex after working the limbs too much. I dont think the belly wood takes well to tension after it has been worked in compression and pull the fibers on the belly apart. so I figured was a good time for heating in some better profiles. but starting off like so.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53447612212_f47f773c24.jpg) (https://www.flickr.com/gp/158435722@N02/J3c1G9Ek55)IMG_5838 (https://www.flickr.com/gp/158435722@N02/J3c1G9Ek55) by Mike Allridge (https://www.flickr.com/photos/158435722@N02/), on Flickr
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The biggest offense is that dog leg on the one limb.....But after looking at my options I figured I would be best served with a new form to heat treat and straighten this piece out with. After some time trying to work the math or just plan freehand the arc I wanted I went back to a string tied to a fixed point to get my 3" reflex over about 14" of the outter limb.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53447612327_8e8be756d4.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2pqYZ4n)IMG_5839 (https://flic.kr/p/2pqYZ4n) by Mike Allridge (https://www.flickr.com/photos/158435722@N02/), on Flickr
worked down to the line with hand tools then and checked for it being square
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53447612582_e0752bd475.jpg) (https://www.flickr.com/gp/158435722@N02/eQg5XG5Y0X)IMG_5841 (https://www.flickr.com/gp/158435722@N02/eQg5XG5Y0X) by Mike Allridge (https://www.flickr.com/photos/158435722@N02/), on Flickr
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Simple project and all part of the bigger picture as I hope to make good use of this form.
That done time to heat treat and try and even profiles up. I use 850 degrees on my gun as a constant and time is variable for heat treating. Working one limb at at time. I mark of 6" lengths. Locust is quick and on average takes 5 min for each 6" to get the color I want, white wood can take much longer(12-18 min/6").
One limb all clamped up and sorry for all the background clutter but space is pretty tight in the shop.
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I am pretty happy with the reflex added but didnt enough of the dog leg out yet. Will be heat treating again at around 22" and hope to get it better at that point. but hes where I stand now.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53448812716_64f4244d22.jpg) (https://www.flickr.com/gp/158435722@N02/o0g48D5186)IMG_5846 (https://www.flickr.com/gp/158435722@N02/o0g48D5186) by Mike Allridge (https://www.flickr.com/photos/158435722@N02/), on Flickr
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Should be able to get a string on it and see how things look very soon.
Thnaks. Mike
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Lookin good mike. Are you gonna just keep what little dogleg left and just attempt to align the tips with next heat treatment?
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That the plan Dave. I was a bit disappointed I did not get more of that out the first time. I could make it work as is now I think with single side nocks but not really the look i am after. After tillering yesterday, I got the stave out to 22" at 42 lbs with out any set I can see and maintained the reflex. 5 More inches to go but I will be heat treating again real soon and with the wood being thinner it should straighten up better. But will need to slow down to try and prevent as much set as I can and get the outers and handle to do a little more work, last 5 inches of tillering is usually when any set creeps in for me. No pictures, but hope to be able to do so in a day or 2 and that could show the progress better.
Mike
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Sounds like a good plan. No set at 22” is a good sign you are in right track. I’ve never heat treated bl before. If it’s considered a dense white wood I would assume it should do quite well with it.
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Very nice progress, I hope to learn a lot from this thread since locust and I don't seem to get along very well. Did you use some kind of oil to make the corrections to the side and front profiles or just heat? did you start applying pressure as soon as you started heating the wood or did you wait a cuple minutes?
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Some handsome timber you have there. Glad you are back in the saddle :)
Del
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I'm enjoying following your build, Mike! Looking forward to more.
Joe
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Good build Mike. I like your detail in the build. Good info for the beginner and the ones that have built for years. We never quit learning in this bow making stuff.
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I heat treat every locust piece I work on Dave. It works well for me. I think its helps with compression. Hope to do the sencod treatment soon, but been delayed a bit the last few days.
Zugul, I do keep a bottle of olive oil on the bench and use that when heating. I started doing that because thats how people said it was done, to spread out the heat better. I do think it helps prevent scorching the wood from my experience. With the side bends I heat it up and then attempt to straighten most of the time. I will try and be more detailed when I try and remove that dogleg soon. As far as the reflex I work from the middle of the bow towards the tips and keep some pressure at the tip and increase after each 6" area I treat. I have pulled the fibers in the belly apart on compressed trained belly wood before this way and so thats why on this one I got some reflex in it as soon as i did. I will try and find one in the corner of shame and get a pic. Where do you run into problems with locust?
Thanks Del and Joe!
Thanks Arvin! Hope this can show some guys newer to this or thinking about trying that if I can do it so can they. This style IMO works for any hardwood at these dimensions for a normal draw length. I like how you add reflex in the outers and thats where I got the idea. If it works for flight bows no reason it cant for a good target bow. I didnt reflex the inner limbs so any set will give it a deflex/reflex profile. not that thats how you want to get there but its going to happen.
Lots to work to go still and hope to get back to working on it tonight.
Mike
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Zugul, I do keep a bottle of olive oil on the bench and use that when heating. I started doing that because thats how people said it was done, to spread out the heat better. I do think it helps prevent scorching the wood from my experience. With the side bends I heat it up and then attempt to straighten most of the time. I will try and be more detailed when I try and remove that dogleg soon. As far as the reflex I work from the middle of the bow towards the tips and keep some pressure at the tip and increase after each 6" area I treat. I have pulled the fibers in the belly apart on compressed trained belly wood before this way and so thats why on this one I got some reflex in it as soon as i did. I will try and find one in the corner of shame and get a pic. Where do you run into problems with locust?
Thanks for your replay. In the past I ran into problems with locust when I tried to bend it without oil, as soon as it changed colour only a bit it became very stiff and bending it more resulted in cracks. Other than that I've always messed up my initial tillering stages, I think because my thickness taper wasn't very consistent from the get go. To solve this problem I got an outside caliper wich I'll use to ensure my taper is gradual and steady, without thick or thin spots.
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I think thickness taper is very important as well Zugul. Otherwise the bends may not be consistent. Still no where as good as I would like to be and still learning and figuring things out myself. below is a picture from an older project where I watched a belly tension crack appear while trying to reflex a piece of osage. just the weight of the bow as leverage and gravity but was already worked in compression a good bit. Was the easy example to find but I had done this in the past with locust. Prim reason I put the reflex in this piece before I really started tillering
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53461064248_a64c23d452.jpg) (https://www.flickr.com/gp/158435722@N02/0Uc6nRN12W)IMG_5863 (https://www.flickr.com/gp/158435722@N02/0Uc6nRN12W) by Mike Allridge (https://www.flickr.com/photos/158435722@N02/), on Flickr
Just no room in the shop for a string and pully tillering set up so I just use a tillering stick. Not the best but its what I got and have always done. The problem is its too hard to get good picture as I dont want to hold the bow at target weight for the time it takes to get the picture. But its 42 lbs at 22 inches still. I figured its best to make a few heat correction to closer line up the string and then heat treat again. Seeing how i did not get it all out the first time with heat treating the bow before I really wanted to do a good job this time. Figured I would get any sideways bends out 1st. I dont turn the heat gun up as high just doing that as I am not looking to change the color of the wood really, just get it up to temperature to bend. Here are my heat gun notes I made up from trial and error. Right/wrong idk but its what i use.
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Here is a before picture showing where the dogleg is.
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I need to move enough to get the tip 3/4" over and that should center the tip to handle area
takes a good bit longer with the lower temperature but I think it allows the heat to penetrate better
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Over bent about 3/4" to allow for some spring back
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Pretty close now.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53461064288_bd41bf829d.jpg) (https://www.flickr.com/gp/158435722@N02/bmBSb1TR56)IMG_5864 (https://www.flickr.com/gp/158435722@N02/bmBSb1TR56) by Mike Allridge (https://www.flickr.com/photos/158435722@N02/), on Flickr
Only problem now is I will need to clamp real well for the heat treating so correction does not get heated back to how it was.
Didn't know how to word most of that so just kind of winged it. Hope it all makes sense, didn't proof read. I need to look at weather or not to make slight adjustments near each nock or leave well enough alone. Otherwise hope to do the final heat treat this weekend and then I hope to work it up to brace height. The wood is a little lighter than I like but I still feel pretty good about it and closing in on full draw so fingers crossed.
Mike
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Good stuff mike. We are on the edge of our seats.
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Looking good Mike. Heating and bending always freaks me out. It’s part of it for sure but, it still makes me nervous. Definitely starting to straighten up.
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M2A I understood everything you said, I think my problem with heat bending is the fact that my heat gun has only 2 settings: 350°C (660°F) and 550°C (1020°F). This time I used the high setting while keeping the heat gun 2" away from the stave and moving it pretty fast over a section 8" long. I got a bit of colour change only after heating the same section with oil on the surface for a total of 25-30 minutes in 3 different sessions, letting the wood rehydrate for a cuple days between them. The stave is still not completly straight, so I'll have to do one more. This time I'll try the lower temperature setting while slowing down the heat gun movement, I hope to be back on my thread with positive news.
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Thanks Dave.
Muskyman. yeah the learning curve for me took awhile to be able to add enough heat to bend it and have it hold. Still have those pieces that can be difficult.
Zugul. seems like 25 min at high temp is a bit long to not get much color change over 8". I keep my heat gun at most and inch away from the wood and keep it moving. maybe not fast but not slow either. If your trying to straighten maybe go with the low heat until you can get some movement then high heat for a little to get what you need. If you can get the string on the handle you can always adjust the tips some to adjust how the string lines up on you handle. Steam works well too but I have not used it enough to give any advice. I'd try the higher setting on your gun to heat treat i think. 4-5 min over your 8"area might be a good guess. looking forward to good things on your build.
Heat treated my stave. went from 22 inches down to 19 on the tillering tree at 42 lbs. Spent some time evening things up and roughed in the nocks.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53466776473_01fb9ac3f0.jpg) (https://www.flickr.com/gp/158435722@N02/76X4p602E5)IMG_5865 (https://www.flickr.com/gp/158435722@N02/76X4p602E5) by Mike Allridge (https://www.flickr.com/photos/158435722@N02/), on Flickr
I like to bevel the belly side so the modern string does not split the grain.
Also was able to get it to a 4" brace height.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53466956834_8b26abf295.jpg) (https://www.flickr.com/gp/158435722@N02/Z691W1n0rW)IMG_5866 (https://www.flickr.com/gp/158435722@N02/Z691W1n0rW) by Mike Allridge (https://www.flickr.com/photos/158435722@N02/), on Flickr
Here is where it will get interesting. I can just see some set creeping in at mid limb. I dont think I have the tips doing enough work still so will be slowly working on them. My goal was and still is a small bit of reflex when finished, even if i end up with 1" of string follow when shot in I'll consider it a success. Its 43 lbs at 23 inches now. 4 more inches to go. 1.5" of reflex in it yet so lost about .5 inches overall so far. Here is it unstrung.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53467060110_9bd898655e.jpg) (https://www.flickr.com/gp/158435722@N02/A2xWS3cF43)IMG_5868 (https://www.flickr.com/gp/158435722@N02/A2xWS3cF43) by Mike Allridge (https://www.flickr.com/photos/158435722@N02/), on Flickr
Hope to get a picture in hand when I get it to 25". I usually would trap the back now but don't think I will be doing it to this one because I have one small pin knot close to the one edge.
Thats it for now
Mike
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Looking good Mike, can’t wait to see it finished. Pappy
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Good progress. Lookin good.