Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: SLIMBOB on December 17, 2023, 01:31:55 pm
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Good December morning to you all. I hope the season finds you all well. I have not frequented PA much over the last couple of years, no biggie, just lot's going on. Mostly, all good. Anyway, I'm working on a new bow that I will share with anyone interested. No new ground to cover, just a straight up build on a sweet piece of Bodark. It has some character to it, and some challenges that should be fun to tackle. Everyone is invited and the admission is free. I only ask that if you are one of the "guests" that frequent the site, sign up! If you are a new bowmaker, or would like to become one, this forum is the place to make that aspiration a reality. Ask questions and participate, you will find more wisdom here than you can imagine. I have been a member here for 10 years or better, and much of what I know about this madness was learned right here, from the generous folks willing and eager to share what they know with anyone involved. This wont be an A to Z How to, but I think we will cover a few things that you may find helpful. So, off we go...
Nice, thinnish ringed Sage with decent late growth percentage with-in the rings. Straight grained, long and wide enough. Two, troublesome knots to contend with. One I can avoid entirely with my layout The other will be incorporated with-in the working limb. The bigger issue, is the concave back just past the big knot. Yuk! If this bow breaks during the build, it will break right there, but I...think...I can make it work. We shall see.
Full disclosure, in real life, I am beyond what you are seeing here, not by much, but some, and I will catch up to " Live TV" soon, by skipping thru the commercials. I hope you find it interesting and helpful. (now if I can get these pics to post). :P
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Chasing a ring on this one was fairly easy, until I got to the knot, and it was a bugger bear. It tore out in the knot, so I took it down another ring. Finally got it right. A pristine back, tip to tip, including the knot and the concave area just beyond it. I will talk more about dimensions once I lay the bow out, but I have room to easily make it 1.5 inches wide at the fades, (wider around the knot) and enough length to get it 66 inches long, and that is the plan. There is a knot on the edge of one end, I think you can see it in the pic. With my limb taper I was able to eliminate it as a concern all together. I will lay it out on the stave in the next post.
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well done...thanks for letting us watch. :BB
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Thanks for checking in Bob. I hope this will be interesting and maybe a bit informative to those watching and myself. :)
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The knot is at about mid limb? Good ratio on early to late. I’m watching!
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Getting my popcorn ready for this one! Can’t wait to watch this one. Thanks for taking the time to post this. I think we need more experienced guys like yourself to post these kind of builds. Thanks again. Really looking forward to this one.
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So on to the layout. I want to find where I will place the center of my bow (lengthwise), and draw a semi permanent pencil line across the stave. That will be the center of my handle. From there, using a 5 inch handle, I will go 2.5 inches lengthwise, both directions and draw my lines. That's my 5 inch handle section. Now, from each of those lines, go 2 inches and draw your 2 lines. These will be the fades. On to the working limbs. In this case, the bow is 66 inches in length. So from the beginning of the bow limb (end of the fade), I went 16 inches and draw my lines on each limb. This area I will run nearly parallel limbs, from the fades to this point, tapering about 1/4 inch. More on that in a moment. Then, the last 12.5 inches narrows to about 3/8 inches at the tip.
Next, I will draw my longitudinal center line from one tip to the other. On this one I started at the handle and free handed the line to both tips. Pretty straight grain, so I went back over that line where possible with a straight edge, to give it definition. This line MUST, follow the lateral grain. Somewhat precisely. Not doing so is a recipe for disaster later! Follow the grain!
On to the edge lines. My handle is an inch wide, so .5 inches from the center on each side gives you the inch wide by 5 inch handle. From the outside fade line, got that 1.5 inches wide (centered) and marked that width on the line. Now draw a diagonal lines from there, back to the top of the handle. Bam, your handle and fades. More on the fades a bit later. Now I go to the 16 inch mark on the limb, and measure a width 1.25 inches and make my marks. Now the tricky part. If the limb is board straight, just connect the dots. If not, you will need to free hand it following the centerline, while adding a small taper. Again, follow the grain, defined by your center line. You will violate the grain along the edge, as a result of the taper, but the angle of violation will be minimal if your center line is on point. Left the tips an inch or so wide for now. Sorry for the long post, just no good breaking point before now.
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Hey Arvin. The knot is dead center left to right, and about 6 inches from the fade. Not the best place for a problem area, but it is what it is. Thanks for checking in sir.
Thanks superdav. Let's see what happens here. I will enjoy it regardless the outcome. I think I can get it to bending, knot and all.
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Lookin good so far. I don't think that knot, hollow will give you too much trouble. Nothing a pair of outside calipers couldn't deal with.
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Hi Hamish. I think your right about the knot. It's the divot next to the knot that concerns me more, coupled with the fact that it is happening nearish fade. Just need to finesse my way thru the thing. Thanks for stopping in.
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I have taken it down to final width (except the tips). I have rounded the edges well, and feathered in the fades. No sharp angles. I've taken wood from the belly and checking the floor tiller. No bend yet, but soon. You can see from the pics, the mess I am working with near the knot. If you look into the...geometry I guess, of how different shapes bend, and where the forces are most pronounced, it is the raised edges that will feel the most stress, or so my understanding. To even those stresses out, I left the belly crowned down the center of the divot. By the way, I believe it was Del some years back that posted the videos on bending mechanics. Neat stuff. Anyway, the center of the divot and the edges are the same thickness, resulting in the crowned belly. If what I understand is correct, and I believe it to be, the stress felt along the raised edges should be lessened with the crowned belly, the stresses being more evenly distributed.
In the pic with the tips, you can see I left them wide. This lets me file temp string knocks for long string tillering. I will eventually sand them off when I narrow the tips. I will get it bending at floor tiller next.
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Looking very good so far, watching and loving it. Love them challenging pieces of wood and they make some great bows. Pappy
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Yes. Me too. I’ve got a similar stave that I’ve been putting off. Taking notes here.
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Welcome back SLIMBOB. Looking good so far. I know here’s never a guarantee, but so far I think you have t minder control. Will definitely be following along.
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Hey Pappy, good to hear from you.
Hi Bent. Thanks for checking in.
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This is awesome, thanks for sharing. I'm excited to see how it turns out.
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That’s quite the knot in that stave. I seem to remember cutting the top off a stave like that and keeping the better part for a billet. Never thought of trying to make a bow with it Watching with much interest Bob, thanks for posting this.
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Yes sir, quite the knot. When I first began this adventure, I was looking for clean, knot free staves. Now, I like the more character rich staves. To a point 🙂. Thanks Muskyman.
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On to the next step. I will take wood off the belly with a belt sander, until she starts to bend on the floor. I turn the belt sander upside down and lock it into my work bench. I can be pretty precise with what comes off, and from where. It is starting to flex for me now and feels pretty balanced. I will put the belt sander away for the rest of the build and transition to my drawknife. But first, I am going to flip the tips and add a bit of backset in the handle. I was at first going to deflex the handle and do an R/D, but my last 3 or 4 have been R/D's. I am sold on them really, but at the very last moment, I decided to change it up a bit on this one. Shooting for around 4 inches of reflex. Dry heat, no oil. Bent like a champ!
I will let it cool before I remove the clamps. I will get a long string on it in the next post. I don't use the long string for more than just checking the symmetry between the limbs, and a general idea of what the bend looks like on each limb. More on that in our next exciting episode. ;)
Edit, that should read, get a short string on it in the next post.
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Interesting build for sure. Looking good.
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Good morning Arvin. Yes sir, it has been interesting. I'm checking out frequently, The Hickory bow your working on. Looks like it could be a screamer when your done.
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Bob, how thick and wide is the handle section, and how much backseat did you achieve? I have not had much luck on my Osage to get that much movement in the handle section.
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The handle right now is approx 1 inch X 1.75 inch. (Or close). I don’t know what the backset alone is. I figure about an inch give or take. It doesn’t take much movement in the handle to project that out at the tips. Figure that I am bending the area over the 5 inch handle and 4 inches of fades, so 9 inches. If you got 1/8” movement over that area, it will project out to about an inch on this length (or so my non mathematical brain figures).
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Thanks Bob. Maybe I just need to get a little more aggressive with the heat when trying to get the handle area to move. Fades out are not much of a problem.
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Ya Osage is great stuff. Love that you can heat bend it dry like that for the most part. Pretty tough. Looking good. Is this gonna be a molle style bow. Those tips look a bit like a mollegabet in the one pic of you floor bending the limbs.
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Hey superdav. Yes sir, it will have a lever type tiller. The last 10 inches or so will be semi stiff. I am setting out to prove, once and for all, that Osage is King. With the wonky knot and nasty divot, can it be tillered with 4 inches of reflex, which includes the backset, and semi lever type tips? I think so. 😎
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That’s gonna be saweeet! I’ve made a number of molles with white woods and they are great bows. Can’t imagine Osage won’t make a screamer.
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…or it breaks in half, and I own both halves.
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Looks really good SlimBob. The photos are really informative. Thanks for taking time to post this build. Good luck the rest of the way
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Thanks Will.
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I love chasing a ring on Bodark...and a few others, but I like equally well, this phase of bow making. the tillering phase. Now first of all, I mentioned earlier that I was ahead of what your seeing. Once I floor tillered, I put this bow up for a few years. I want it to season, and harden up. So in the fall of 2021 it went into the closet. I brought it out earlier this month and took the tips down and added overlays. Put the backset and recurves in, long string tillered Just a bit, and then got a string on it. Floor tiller is important as It lets me know when it is ready to bend evenly for the long string The long string is important because it shows me that both limbs are bending together well. Once they are, I go straight to low brace. The tuning I did floor tillering and long string tillering, is just to get me to this point. When I put a short string on it, the tiller is typically really even, limb to limb. Its still heavy, but I am not stressing it beyond low brace. 4 maybe 5 inches (less if I am concerned at all). I make my adjustments with the string on when I can, and I get the brace shape like I want it. I have talked about this method before. Take a straight edge, and run it along the belly. The gap between the straight edge and the belly is your guide. Areas where the gap is wider, its bending more there. Don't scrape here. Areas where the gap in less, its bending less...take wood off here. When the gap is more or less the same across the working limb, it is bending evenly. You can see in the pics where I marked the belly. The X, is don't scrape. The other is scrape until the pencil marks are gone. Then, exercise and check it again. Rinse and repeat. Keep both limbs balanced and get them bending like you want them before you go much farther. You will not have any hinges to contend with. None!
We will get it drawn some in the next go-round.
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That's looking mighty good so far. :)
Pappy
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Wow. I’m liking the profile of this bow! I did up a couple pics of your braced pic. Looks great!
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Hey superdav, tell me what I am looking at?
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It’s just your pic where I’ve added a digital ruler using photo editor. Mainly to show the evenness of the bend on both limbs. They look fairly balanced so far. Right one maybe a little more bend. Early stages of yard stick tillering and just showing balance of bend on both sides of each limb or the arc of the bend on each limb individually. A mid point mark with pencil of the bending portion of your limb make a mark and then mirror that arc on both sides of the mid limb mark for even bend on each limb then compare both limbs by measuring the depth from midpoint to the yardstick. Nothing too fancy. I’ve been using this method more last little bit. It’s a nice visual to let me know if I like what I see is happening. It’s also something measurable. Lookin good so far.
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Ok, gotcha. I thought it might be something of that nature. I chose to leave the area around the knot a little flat, just to lessen the load there, so the limb is a tad stiffer. I will make that limb my bottom limb. Still a bit of work to do on it, but I think it’s close. Thanks for the pics sir.
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But, as I look at your pics, it appears the opposite. If you look at the string, the loop is what I have been calling the upper limb, but it has appeared to be a tad stiffer, so I figured it will be the bottom. I will ponder this a bit. 🙂
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Ya I may be bit off on my placement of the rulers. When I do this with my bow builds I make actual measurements and place yardstick at correct marks.
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Still, good information. I just need to interpret it correctly.
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Ok, so we have caught up with live TV. Now it will slow to a crawl for a bit. The tiller looks pretty good, considering the knot area. I am leaving that area a tad flat for it's own sake. I will thin down and shape up the fades and get those looking good. Again on the fades, they need to feather into the limb. Since the fade narrows to the 1 inch handle, it needs to be progressively thicker as it narrows. It is a tricky thing getting them right if your new to this. No sharp angles in the fades. The handle should flow into the fades, and "fade" into the working limb. I'm also going to work on the inner part of the stiff tips. I want 8-10 inches, with a little movement early.. By the way, I did put overlays on it, but I am not real happy with them The Buffalo horn is rough and ugly. I will address those down the road. I saw both Gordon and Arvin mention this a few days ago, and I agree 100%, If you take your time and get the tiller right before you stress the limbs, it will pay dividends in the final product. My Reflex is at 4 inches right now. I will monitor that as I go and see how much I can keep at the end of the build. I typically would also heat temper here, but Im not going to on this one if I can get it to keep it's profile. We shall see how that goes.
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Looking real nice so far. good explanations of the process. Thanks for putting in the time to do this (-P
Mike
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Hey Mike. Thanks for checking in. I enjoy this a bunch. Hope something is useful to someone.
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I really like the profile and tiller so far. I understand keeping the knot a little stiff compared to the rest of the limb. I typically try to make whatever limb has the most character ( knots, snakey) the top limb. Just curious that you plan to make the limb with the knot the bottom limb. Can you explain why?
Thanks for taking the time to show your work!
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Hey will. I was planning on putting the knot on top. After bracing, it appeared that limb might be a skosh stiffer so I flipped it. Still have wood to shed, so it could go either way. I just want the lighter limb up. All things equal, I would put the knot on top.
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Really liking the looks so far also.
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Thanks bent. I hope to get some time on this weekend and get it drawn to 27 inches.