Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => English Warbow => Topic started by: Cromm on May 21, 2008, 08:59:09 pm
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Hi, I've never made or owned a Yew English longbow but being British/English it seem's to be in my blood to have one! The thing is i spoke to a top bowmaker in England about a yew self bow and he said that yew is a rubbish bow wood if you want a long lasting bow.......He said that they work well for the first year max then after that they turn to jelly, and that i should go for a Hickory backed Osage orange longbow instead. The bow would be 55lb at 28in. So is he right because i do not know what to do now?
Thanks for your time PA fans!!!!!
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Well now. That is interesting. I just read on PP where Steve Gardner just tested a Yew longbow built in 1948. It's still shooting quite well, in fact he chronographed it at 164 fps with 10GPP. Not too shabby IMO
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Sounds like the top bowmaker is out of yew.
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??? there are warbows in a ship wreck that were about 400yrs. old and i am pretty sure they were shootable.
If i am right it is what you call a Mary Rose bow
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Well if that is true no one has bothered to tell my yew bows ;D They just seem to get stronger with age. Seriously most I've made with yew have gained a little as they aged.
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The only downfall I see with yew is that it can't take abuse. The woos is soft so it doesn't take much to dent it. If yew was a trash wood it wouldn't still be used for bows. A few years ago, other experts said that osage and yew were the only woods worth making bows out of. See how smart those guys were. Pat
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I know lots of people who shoot self yew warbows very regularly but I have not found anyone who has reported this to be the case ?
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Sounds like the top bowmaker is out of yew.
think so, too!
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This is truly funny..A top bowmaker in England says Yew is rubbish..he must be burning some serious tree ;D ;D to get that delusional...Granted nowadays there's a lot more good bows woods and open minds about using them, but that doesn't make high density yew any less of a top notch wood..
Like Keenan mentioned my only yew selfbow gets stronger with age...I'd love to get more of that 60 rpi stuff without having to trade a kid to get it :o ;)
Rich
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Really good yew is magic, I have never had the opportunity to work with any euro yew wood but would love to. I usually make a few yew bows each year. I have had some good ones and some bad ones, some my fault and some questionable wood. But I have had 2 yew bows that I would give my right testacle to get back. One of them I built for a guy about 7 years ago, 65# @ 28" he draws it to about 27", I still get to shoot it every now and then and just can't get enough of it. I have had some problems with yew delaminating between the growth rings. I have leaned to catch this problem before tillering starts as the color change is evident and not hard to see. I have also had what i thought were perfectly tillered bows just pop in half. But I still love good yew wood. Steve
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I know the bowyer in question, I know his views and consider him a friend - so I'm going to make a couple of comments here to bring the discussion back to a proper context because to quote him as saying 'yew is rubbish' without some background which I'm sure he provided is unfair.
The truth is actually already in the thread for anybody that bothers to read it and draw sensible conclusions.
1) Yew is a softwood
2)It can delaminate along the grain
3)Badger has only made 2 yew bows he'd really rather have kept.
That says it all really because none of it is consistent with making great long lasting bows. Historically we know this to have been the case too - from the sheer numbers of staves imported to England per annum for a relatively small bow using population and from the resupply needs of armies even after short campaigns. High draw weight high performance yew bows never lasted all that long.
Why do some think that high draw weight yew bows do last more than a season or two? Because most people who own these things are incapable of using them properly. Instead of working the bow, the bow is working them - what a surprise that the thing outlasts those archers. Put a self yew bow in the hands of an archer who can really wring it by the neck, and it generally chrysals very quickly indeed. There really is only one Archer of whom this can truly be said with heavy bows in the UK and that is of course Simon Stanley. Yes, he has owned the odd yew bow which lasted a long time, but by and large they don't survive in his company for too long which is why he uses them for special occasions only.
Whats the problem with yew? It isn't great at resisting shear - too soft and too poorly interlocked between the rings. Sap is good in tension, heartwood is good in compression,its light and can therefore be very quick - but it isn't great at resisting the sheer forces which you inevitably get, particularly the bigger you build these things and that is a real achilles heel. This is why it prospers better as a core wood with a hickory back and osage belly - that makes a really good bow - or as thin laminates in flatbows.
Yew is of course a beautiful wood and has huge emotional appeal when it gets turned into a bow. Not only that, but anyone who is seriously interested in archery history cannot take themselves seriously unless they own a yew bow. But lets not confuse emotion and a historical perspective with the hard facts of materials science.
Chris
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"Yew is a softwood and no matter what you do with it Yew bows at the higher weights have a limited working life. It is entirely possible to have "shot out" a 100lb yew bow in under a year with regular use. It has been said that a medieval war bow in daily use could be "shot out" in about a month and the life expectancy in battle might be no more than 2 3 dozen arrows"
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he said that yew is a rubbish bow wood if you want a long lasting bow....
Hi, ChrisD i hope you didn't think i or the bowmaker was putting Yew wood down in my quote?
I was just after a bow that was worth it's money and would stand up to the job.
The bowmaker in question gave his opinion freely,and as it's been said yew bows can be a lot of cash for a good one, but being from the UK it just seem that your head is saying go for the bow that will last a lifetime and will roll with the knocks and your heart says.....YEW BOW ALL THE WAY BABY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Thanks for all of the informion and help people have put on the subject but the jury is still out on this one........ hhmmmmm Yew......
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Cromm
I know exactly what the bowmaker meant when was talking to you - I've had many conversations with him on the same topic myself. When people get quoted - particularly a short soundbite - odd ideas flower like a fungus. Read back on how some have interpreted the initial post.
In my experience, people who are interested in the warbow generally accumulate numerous types of bow in their collection, making the impact of one or two not so longlasting possessions less severe. I have a Swiss Self Yew and an Osage Hickory at 110lb and 100lb respectively, both by Bickerstaffe and both superb. I also recently acquired a Belcher Union Jack Reflex at 105lb - and that is simply stunning. All this has occurred over a period of 3-4 years, so the overall outlay is not that huge - one of these bows actually slipped in under the wire without the wife even noticing! ;D
So be patient - and I'd recommend buying something tough which you can work into first before going for something high performance, but maybe a bit delicate. You've got to remember that with self bows, nobody knows how well they will last until the endgame - a bit like a human life really. There can be all sorts of flaws inside the wood which affect tiller, performance and longevity in unpredictable ways. With a high quality laminate though, you do get a certain level of confidence in the materials - particularly with someone who sources his woods as carefully and craftily as Pip (Bickerstaffe).
Chris
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Hello Chris, I just wanted to say I agree that Simon is a great archer but lets not forget Mark Stretton!
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Having made and worked with much yew I think some of these statements to be very generalized. As with any wood design and the workmanship of the bowyer plays a huge role in performance and longevity of the bow. As stated there are always certain flaws or character factors to consider. I have worked some yew of extreamly tight, clean grianed wood that would have made a great war bow material and have had some that I would never use for that type of bow.
Personally I think yew makes a better bow as a shorter flat bow version. I still disagree with the comment that a yew bow will not last or would get "shot out" quickly. It would be more likely that the bow was under built or poor design for that piece of wood. Crysals are caused more by design flaws from the bowyer then anything. Yes some wood crysals easier then orther woods but that is not the case with yew.
My most favorite bow is a 58" D/R yew self bow that I shoot weekly,is several years old and has only got better with age. Keenan
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Is yew any good for an English Warbow? Not wanting to sound flippant but it's like asking asking if milk is any good for ice cream. Strictly speaking an English warbow should only be made of yew, that is afterall what they were made of. Good quality yew is superb, these days it is in short supply so lamiantes are used but there are good sources of yew available if you are willing to pay and wait for them. Italiian, some very good English and Pacific yew (not strictly historical but very, very good and close). But not Swiss ::)
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I think Yew has its pluses and minuses. But as a high draw weight ELB warbow design it's built to last only a short time. It's like a high powered race car. Fantastic for a while but breaks down quickly! Yew can make a very durable bow if the right design is used. More flatbow instead of high crowned belly will extend life of the bow much longer. But, its not and ELB then! Pluses and minuses!
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I have tried Osage, hickory, elm and yew. My preference is yew, partly because I find the cast at least as good as the others and partly because I find very little string follow [unlike my two elm bows], but mostly because it has been thought the absolute best bow wood for thousands of years by archers of different cultures in all parts of Europe. I take their word for it.
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I think Yew has its pluses and minuses. But as a high draw weight ELB warbow design it's built to last only a short time. It's like a high powered race car. Fantastic for a while but breaks down quickly! Yew can make a very durable bow if the right design is used. More flatbow instead of high crowned belly will extend life of the bow much longer. But, its not and ELB then! Pluses and minuses!
Where on earth do you get your ideas that these bows will only last a short time, i only shoot self yew warbows and my bows have lasted me for ages, 1000's of arrows, other warbow archers like Mark Stretton, Glennan Carnie etc also do the same shoot heavy bows which have lasted them ages.
Some strange notions here.
Steve
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I made a yew bow that I shoot regularly, it is 51#@26" 68"ntn longbow... I have shot it approximately 40000 shots and it havnīt lost one pound in drawweight, and is shooting with pleasing accuracy ;o)
This is what I can do with it from 20 yards ;D
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y227/Fundin/Bows/3ggr10.jpg)
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Wow fundin thats better than most people are with compounds
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I was waiting for Stevesjem to comment ;D I to torture my yew 3d bow regularly and it's still as good as new...It's all about the really good stuff, like it is for all bow woods...ya mess with the other stuff when yer learnin ;)...
Rich
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I was waiting for Stevesjem to comment ;D I to torture my yew 3d bow regularly and it's still as good as new...It's all about the really good stuff, like it is for all bow woods...ya mess with the other stuff when yer learnin ;)...
Rich
Nicely said Rich, BTW what do you mean you were waiting for me to comment? ;D, Am i that predictable?
Cheers
Steve
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Nah, not really Steve. I expected your answer a lot earlier ;D. What took you so long?
Regarding the topic, everything has been said, written and done. Yew is among the most superior bow woods on this planet. Taking everything into account, one can't cast it out of the top 5. Personal opinion will change that as little as discussing it the 123457894357th time.
And by the way, which mysterious bow maker, whose name obviously not shall be spoken out loudly or written to remain in time, are we talking about?
Heiner
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Yew is very good when good, but will break for no apparent reason if the quality is poor, I have experienced both. From two of the trees I just couldnīt make a bow that would hold together, and from the rest, the bows seemed unbreakable....
Also consider the MC of the wood, at least where I live, it can get down far to low during winter (Like 10-15%RH indoors), and if the bow is not properly shot in before, it will break more easily.
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I believe a warbow proportioned yew selfbow is a special bow for certain people. Yew is high performance, no doubt, but it is also high maintenance. It is a soft wood, requires knowledable tillering, and needs to be cared for with great attention. Not a good bow for first time or inexperienced archers. Also, they're expensive... to both make, and purchase. Owning a yew selfbow is the refinement of an archer's status as such. Like a car enthusiast owning a vintage MG. it requires knowledge and care. From experience, yew will not lose any performance, but would not make a good knock-around everyday shooter. Also, if Medieval bowyers could have gotten their hands on osage, don't you think they'd have used it, with great success? Especially with a hickory back? Yew was the best material they had at the time, for heavy weight warbows. A yew selfbow is a truly amazing piece of our living history... well worth experiencing.
Cheers.
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Steve, Since you have made more Yew warbows than most if not all here, I knew it would be interesting..in a good way ;D
Rich
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Steve, I still stand by what I said. The design is a high stress design when done properly and not overbuilt. In constant day to day use in all weather conditions it will wear down. Have you been out with it in sheeting rain, snow and high humidity conditions as we have here in the states, especially during hunting season?
For everyday use and a bow that can take these conditions I will stick with either osage or vinemaple! Yew is a great wood for a performance bow but not fore the everyday hunting bows I would take in the woods. Plus, its too expensive to use in such a manner!
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in my own experiences i think the english longbow design is a very poor design for yew, with the rounded belly it concentrates compression which results in frets and crysals, I have made several yew bows that have more of a flat belly and they out-perform the ELB pound for pound. and I have had very few break. I think the warbow was a quick bow to make and its length helped to make it last. you can laminate various other woods to help the bows longevity, but then it is no longer a self-bow. as far a durability in hunting, I used a yew bow a entire season in rain, snow and heat, and never lost any weight or performance, but of course the bow was finished and sealed to repel any moisture. vinemaple seems to be more affected by heat and moisture than yew. as far a de-laminating, you can see in the growth rings if there is any wind shake or snow load that caused a stress seperation between the rings by a dark streak, these can de-laminate if not wrapped with sinew. I personally really prefer yew, it is pleasant to shoot, light, and quick responding. it is also nice to work with, responds well to steaming or boiling for recurving tips. I try not to toss my bows around too much as the wood is prone to denting. as with any wood, there are varying qualities, some of which will not be recognized until the bow is coming to tiller, and therefore is hard to determine in just stave form. ;)
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Dave, how does the Yew take the high heat and low humidity conditions around where you are in the summer? What are you using to seal your bows with? I might use that instead of what I have been using on the yew bows I am building. Got to come out to the Classic with me next year its a hoot! ;D
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David, on my hunting bows I lilke to use polyurethane, I build up the finish with multiple coats. this year I plan on using thunderbird epoxy, it is even more durable. I would like to go to the classic, just see what airfare does by that time. I hunted in the heat during regular season, and in pouring rain the late season with no problems.
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adb3112 and D Tiller, I think my everyday yew longbow, 51#@26" with at least 40 000 shots would be an everydat shooter if any bow is it. It has not lost a pound after the first 100 shots, it has been dragged throuh bushes, endured at least a dozen stringbreaks, had the antlernocks break off twise (dropped it from a bike once and the othe time the raindeerantler just split, replaced it with moose wich is tougher) run over by a car once and got squished in a door once.... It has handeled humidity between 15%RH and 100%RH over periods of time....
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Juniper-junkie; You seem to have a particular kind of English longbow in mind. The D shape was the only shape for Victorians and BLS officials. Extreme Victorians came up eith the 'whaleback', a D that was thicker than it was wide. This was a natural for any compression ailment. Tudor and mediaeval bows were never thicker than they were wide. Many were more oval than D shape which gives less compressipn stress like those that had a rounded rectangular section. You really have to classify them as English longbows whether BLS agrees or not.
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hi guys i found the yew thread a bit late and you guys were quoting pip bickestaff and some other s as great bow makers i think a lot of ya forgot we have one that make s yew bows right here in the good ol usa thats second to none in my book any one rember DON ADAMS FROM ORGGON ha iv seen his work and it s top of the line ;D
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He retired this year! :( He sold the buisness to Dave Tinsley up here in WA. I think he said it was getting to be to much for him and he wanted to spend more time flying. Tinsley is now making more bows and archery tools than ever. Hardly ever get to see him at Camlann these days. Though I am not there much myself!
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he said that yew is a rubbish bow wood if you want a long lasting bow....
Hi, ChrisD i hope you didn't think i or the bowmaker was putting Yew wood down in my quote?
I was just after a bow that was worth it's money and would stand up to the job.
The bowmaker in question gave his opinion freely,and as it's been said yew bows can be a lot of cash for a good one, but being from the UK it just seem that your head is saying go for the bow that will last a lifetime and will roll with the knocks and your heart says.....YEW BOW ALL THE WAY BABY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Thanks for all of the informion and help people have put on the subject but the jury is still out on this one........ hhmmmmm Yew......
I've followed this topic for a while now and have been thinking about the directions that the discussion has taken and how some have interpreted the question. I'd like to add a bit of context to what I've already said if I may?
First off, of course yew is good - its still used in many of the finest bows no matter what the type.
Secondly, in the context of the English Warbow, it was certainly the best available at the time for that type of design and those requirements. It needs to be remembered that part of the reason for the design was probably suitability for mass production and efficient materials use, maybe to the detriment of out and out performance - a given failure rate of the bows (if thats what happened) does not necesarily mean there was a problem with the material. The burgundian bow mentioned in Soars book and the mysterious 'Broad Bow' indicate that bowyers could optimise performance well enough if they needed to.
Thirdly, we know that yew from all over Europe was imported to England for warbows and that therefore, for historic significance alone, ownership of such a thing has huge value to any dedicated student of archery history. This is especially true of Italian yew because we know that Henry VIII ordered 40000 such staves prior to his French campaigns, that in the end only 20000 could be delivered (presumably the order strained supplies) and that it is therefore extremely likely that many(possibly all) of the MR bows are actually of North Italian origin.
Finally, there is the question of performance. There is a great deal of discussion about how one type of yew performs compared with another and websites have been quoted saying what size a tree should be to yield such and such a performance. I don't think anyone can really know because even the most experienced bowyers of today have limited quantities of wood to work with and we don't really have a way of measuring materials quality against that available to bowyers of the past. What is more, even the most prolific bowyers today will only make EWB's in the hundreds in a commercial lifetime, while in mediaeval times, a bowyer might have made or supervised the production of tens thousands in a working life. Finally, we know from Richard Wadges research that the requirement for staves was vast - they must have taken pretty much everything they could get!! I will say this though. In Hugh Soars book 'Secrets of the Warbow', details of experiments are given of how an Italian Yew bow was the equal of others about 20-30lb heavier. I have only owned one Italian yew bow and I eventually broke it - but having owned a series of heavier bows since, I can say that even at the end of its working life, it still cast as far as a bow 20lb or so heavier. This will have been contributed to by the fact that I was better able to use it than I am some of my heavier equipment which is harder to master - but the Italian yew nevertheless punched well above its weight.
I hope these comments put my earlier thoughts in context - any ire directed my way please.
Chris
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IMO hes out of yew... "experts" usually dont know what their talking about when it comes to things that need to be actually tested and not hypothesized...